Reikijim wrote:
I see all as one infinite energy, that my mind really cannot comprehend, so i struggle with word and ideas to come as close as i can, to an understanding. In Reiki, the best explanation I have, is that I may be focusing on a specific energy, in the infinite, to accomplish something. I identify this band through a symbol. I`m not sure that this act becomes a duality, but half my brain is saying it has to...What`s one to do with that...? Can we be one, and separate ? I think we can, as I cannot see another possibility. What do you think? If we are of energy and surrounded by energy only, why could we not?...and is duality in this theory, a limitation? I would not see it as such ...it just is...Ok someone please get a net to capture me before i float away...lol

My thought on this is simple. The symbols are tools to help us focus on a particular concept, energy frequency, ideal, et. al. By focusing on HSZSN, for example, it can help you step outside of time and space. Something that would be incredibly difficult for someone who hasn't mastered doing so already. Even Jesus used a "Word" to facilitate his healing miracles. He, of course, didn't need it, but he gave the word to his disciples, because they would not have been able to comprehend how he accomplished what he did without the "Word" to assist their focus.

But focusing on the symbol, we remove our ego, and our individual attachment to the outcome. So I'm doing a distance session, and I don't focus on HSZSN, I can become attached to the process of sending energy across a distance. By focusing on the symbol, I remove my caring from the process, and just let the energy be what it is, part of the whole.

But by meditating or focusing on the symbols as something that grants us power, or allows us to do things we wouldn't normally be able to do, then we start to have duality consciousness. Because something outside of ourself is allowing us to do something.

Its a very subtle semantic, but I think an important and profound one.

Thaak wrote:

Reikijim wrote:
I see all as one infinite energy, that my mind really cannot comprehend, so i struggle with word and ideas to come as close as i can, to an understanding. In Reiki, the best explanation I have, is that I may be focusing on a specific energy, in the infinite, to accomplish something. I identify this band through a symbol. I`m not sure that this act becomes a duality, but half my brain is saying it has to...What`s one to do with that...? Can we be one, and separate ? I think we can, as I cannot see another possibility. What do you think? If we are of energy and surrounded by energy only, why could we not?...and is duality in this theory, a limitation? I would not see it as such ...it just is...Ok someone please get a net to capture me before i float away...lol

My thought on this is simple. The symbols are tools to help us focus on a particular concept, energy frequency, ideal, et. al. By focusing on HSZSN, for example, it can help you step outside of time and space. Something that would be incredibly difficult for someone who hasn't mastered doing so already. Even Jesus used a "Word" to facilitate his healing miracles. He, of course, didn't need it, but he gave the word to his disciples, because they would not have been able to comprehend how he accomplished what he did without the "Word" to assist their focus.

But focusing on the symbol, we remove our ego, and our individual attachment to the outcome. So I'm doing a distance session, and I don't focus on HSZSN, I can become attached to the process of sending energy across a distance. By focusing on the symbol, I remove my caring from the process, and just let the energy be what it is, part of the whole.

But by meditating or focusing on the symbols as something that grants us power, or allows us to do things we wouldn't normally be able to do, then we start to have duality consciousness. Because something outside of ourself is allowing us to do something.

Its a very subtle semantic, but I think an important and profound one.

Hi Andy,

Gotta absorb the subtleties of what you have offered..

RJ

Practicing in removing myself from Duality or Separation consciousness is why I find it very hard to meditate on symbols anymore. Because in doing so, I'm recognizing that there is something beyond me that I don't have that I need.

Did you feel you needed to be attuned in order to use Reiki? If so, why? Do you practice meditation? Do you not use a tool for focus while doing so (breath, picture, mantra, etc.)? The symbols are the same thing in my opinion. Do you you require food, air, sunlight, warmth, etc.? Those are outside of yourself as well... or from a nondualistic perspective, nothing is outside yourself. No need to fear the symbols.

Edit - just read one of your later posts and see that you agree on the symbols' purpose. I guess that's why I don't see any issue in using them. I agree that they don't hold any magical powers or allow us to do superhuman things. So yuh no need to fear the symbols.

And even those who are very good at living in Munay, will at times jump down and gossip with coworkers and judge someone, et. al.

Even the Buddha was a man. Even Jesus was a man. Both occasionally got gas just like the rest of us.

o0wabi-sabi0o wrote:

Practicing in removing myself from Duality or Separation consciousness is why I find it very hard to meditate on symbols anymore. Because in doing so, I'm recognizing that there is something beyond me that I don't have that I need.

Did you feel you needed to be attuned in order to use Reiki? If so, why? Do you practice meditation? Do you not use a tool for focus while doing so (breath, picture, mantra, etc.)? The symbols are the same thing in my opinion. Do you you require food, air, sunlight, warmth, etc.? Those are outside of yourself as well... or from a nondualistic perspective, nothing is outside yourself. No need to fear the symbols.

Edit - just read one of your later posts and see that you agree on the symbols' purpose. I guess that's why I don't see any issue in using them. I agree that they don't hold any magical powers or allow us to do superhuman things. So yuh no need to fear the symbols.

And even those who are very good at living in Munay, will at times jump down and gossip with coworkers and judge someone, et. al.

Even the Buddha was a man. Even Jesus was a man. Both occasionally got gas just like the rest of us.

chuckle... I don't fear them. I just don't feel the need to use them in my personal practice any longer.

'Course, there comes a time where one can enter a state of deep meditation almost with the snap of their fingers, if you will. Takes an unbelievable amount of practice, but is certainly possible. I thought you meant you had an aversion to them simply because you felt you should not have to look outside yourself for anything, but I see what you mean now after your later posts and agree entirely. :]

o0wabi-sabi0o wrote:I agree that they don't hold any magical powers or allow us to do superhuman things.

Perhaps, hehe. Although entering into a sacred process with my divine spark, in which another 8000 mile away expereinces their own divine spark in action, is quite extraordinary.

Or, conferring that ability onto another somewhat permantely, through the use of symbols, some might look at it in awe, and think it magical, .

Take care
Wayne

Perhaps, hehe. Although entering into a sacred process with my divine spark, in which another 8000 mile away expereinces their own divine spark in action, is quite extraordinary.

Or, conferring that ability onto another somewhat permantely, through the use of symbols, some might look at it in awe, and think it magical, .

Indeed but do they have any inherent mystical abilities? If CKR appeared on a grilled cheese sandwhich and someone saw it/ate it would it have any effect? If you did not know the meaning/purpose/uses/history of the symbols, would they be of any use? They are magical only because of this IMO.

Maybe I'll ask my next Level II student if I can try an experiment... and I will not tell them anything about the different symbols. I will ask them to meditate on them after they've been attuned to them, and to try using them on a plant, and see what they note.

o0wabi-sabi0o wrote:

Indeed but do they have any inherent mystical abilities?

Of course they do, . Do you initiate with white supremicist sysmbols, or the symbol for plutonium? Any symbols won't do. The two symbols had much significance before Reiki.

Why dop we use the symbols in Denju initiations, if they not got mystical abilities. After all, Usui sensei picked them, and empowered them, by virtue of his mystical experience. This is why they confer a somewhat one-off permanent mystical expereince in a practitioner, .

o0wabi-sabi0o wrote:
If CKR appeared on a grilled cheese sandwhich and someone saw it/ate it would it have any effect? If you did not know the meaning/purpose/uses/history of the symbols, would they be of any use? They are magical only because of this IMO.

Even Reiki folks successfully use the symbols, and many don't know the meaning/purpose/uses/history. The deeper workings aren't known, yet the symbols wil still do things.

As you say, they're magical cause of the above. The reason why symbols, any symbols really, work in the above way, is because the spiriutual student is already obviously exercising their free will, by the use/study of such symbols. It's a big deal in spirituality, free will.

That's not to say spontaneous occurences don't occur. I suspect, based on my own undertsanding of not attempting to attain 'goals' as such, that Usui senseis' expereince of the sutras, was spontaneous, for example. Can we suggest then, that the sutras aren't mystical? Course not. Cause of the potential they have. In fact, everything is mystical. You could experience enlightenment next time you go for a poo, .

o0wabi-sabi0o wrote:
Maybe I'll ask my next Level II student if I can try an experiment... and I will not tell them anything about the different symbols. I will ask them to meditate on them after they've been attuned to them, and to try using them on a plant, and see what they note.

In my own humble opinion, the experiement won't work. Usui sensei empowered the symbols, imo. You've recieved a spiritual empowerment into the symbols. You're passing on a spiritual empowerment to another. whether you specifically attune with the symbols or not, you yourself wouldn't have the ability to confer a spiritual empowerment, without the symbols. There's still some 'transference' of ability to the student then, because of the symbols, imo.

Take care
Wayne

Of course they do, . Do you initiate with white supremicist sysmbols, or the symbol for plutonium? Any symbols won't do.

To be honest I see Attunements not as some mystical process either. I think of it as a ritual. Out of respect for the system I feel this ritual is very important. It assists in opening our awareness to Reiki. I don't believe the symbols are actually NECESSARY. They are certainly useful though.

As you say, they're magical cause of the above. The reason why symbols, any symbols really, work in the above way, is because the spiriutual student is already obviously exercising their free will, by the use/study of such symbols. It's a big deal in spirituality, free will.

I don't disagree.

But if that is how they work, why would one have to "be attuned to them," or have them "printed on their soul" etc.? Perhaps because in experiencing them firsthand as such, we can better understand them? We can understand them in a unique way... hmm...

BUT... without that understanding through experience, could one not still use the symbols somewhat effectively without being Attuned? Why or why not?

Usui senseis' expereince of the sutras, was spontaneous, for example. Can we suggest then, that the sutras aren't mystical? Course not. Cause of the potential they have. In fact, everything is mystical.

Yes, everything has this potential, I don't disagree. In Buddhism there are many ways to come to the same understanding or glimpse of Enlightenment. A Master chooses a method for each individual student. It could be a Koan, it could be showing by example, it could be anything really. My opinion is that this carries over to the symbols as well.

o0wabi-sabi0o wrote:

Of course they do, . Do you initiate with white supremicist sysmbols, or the symbol for plutonium? Any symbols won't do.

To be honest I see Attunements not as some mystical process either. I think of it as a ritual. Out of respect for the system I feel this ritual is very important. It assists in opening our awareness to Reiki. I don't believe the symbols are actually NECESSARY. They are certainly useful though.

that's cool, i repsect your position, .

o0wabi-sabi0o wrote:

As you say, they're magical cause of the above. The reason why symbols, any symbols really, work in the above way, is because the spiriutual student is already obviously exercising their free will, by the use/study of such symbols. It's a big deal in spirituality, free will.

I don't disagree.

But if that is how they work, why would one have to "be attuned to them," or have them "printed on their soul" etc.? Perhaps because in experiencing them firsthand as such, we can better understand them? We can understand them in a unique way... hmm...

Good point. I feel that we have the symbols to 'emulate' to a degree, the ability Usui sensei had. Usui sensei empowered the symbols, some are actually phrases, as we know. Yet carry amazing ability. He passed on this ability, right down to us, via the lineage spiritual empowerment using the symbols.

o0wabi-sabi0o wrote:
BUT... without that understanding through experience, could one not still use the symbols somewhat effectively without being Attuned? Why or why not?

Well, we're spiritually empowered to use the symbols, and really, it's Usui sensei's empowerment. He picked the symbols, and confered the ability to pass on Reiki.

You asking me could we not use the symbols without initiation would lead myself to be saying they have no inherent mystical ability, hehe.

We couldn't use them as in Reiki, i don't believe. Certainly not as easily or consitently as we usually do. Before Reiki there was meaning though, .

o0wabi-sabi0o wrote:

Usui senseis' expereince of the sutras, was spontaneous, for example. Can we suggest then, that the sutras aren't mystical? Course not. Cause of the potential they have. In fact, everything is mystical.

Yes, everything has this potential, I don't disagree. In Buddhism there are many ways to come to the same understanding or glimpse of Enlightenment. A Master chooses a method for each individual student. It could be a Koan, it could be showing by example, it could be anything really. My opinion is that this carries over to the symbols as well.

Not sure what you're saying here buddy? .

take care
Wayne

Ok, I've had trouble figuring out how to articulate what I wanted to say on Wayne's comments about using other, less savory, symbols, if they are just tools.

So here goes:

A hammer pounds in a nail, and does an incredibly good job of it. But a potato peeler will probably break in the process. Both tools, and both incredibly good at their individual jobs, but not very good at doing each other's jobs.

In the energy healing world, the symbols are even more specialized, in that a swastika would not be able to do what CKR does, nor visa versa.

The symbols represent a particular idea, ideal, energy, meaning, and focus. When we focus on that symbol, and our intent to use that symbol in a certain way, then the energy behind the meaning of that symbol activates. With practice, we can activate this energy without using the symbol, just like I could nail a board to the wall just using my finger if I practiced hard enough.

But the swastika (and other unsavory symbols) have a particular cultural meaning attached to them, that brings a negative connotation to the table. [Note: Interestingly enough, the swastika used to be a positive symbol in germanic and celtic symbology, but was perverted by the Nazis.] So you can't use a swastika to attune someone to Reiki.

Although, I would also argue that if your intent is positive and your intent is to attune someone to Reiki, it doesn't matter what symbol(s) you use, the person will be attuned to Reiki. Why? Because the intent is there, and the universe will allow to happen, positively, what your intent requires.

Although if you are just screwing around and making a mockery of it by using the swatstika, then it will probably not work. I don't know. I wouldn't try it.

Thaak wrote:

Although, I would also argue that if your intent is positive and your intent is to attune someone to Reiki, it doesn't matter what symbol(s) you use, the person will be attuned to Reiki. Why? Because the intent is there, and the universe will allow to happen, positively, what your intent requires.

Hi buddy,
It's maybe interesting to note, that many teachers report that simply doing Reiju, the Reiki experience won't hold. The Reiju needs to be on an on-going basis.

So, even with intent, the somewhat permanent attunement doesn't take place.

As we know, when the symbols are placed within a person, it usually holds.

BTW, sorry for my unsavoury symbol examples bro, i was trying ot come up with ridiculous examples, .

Take care
Wayne

Milarepa wrote:

Thaak wrote:

Although, I would also argue that if your intent is positive and your intent is to attune someone to Reiki, it doesn't matter what symbol(s) you use, the person will be attuned to Reiki. Why? Because the intent is there, and the universe will allow to happen, positively, what your intent requires.

Hi buddy,
It's maybe interesting to note, that many teachers report that simply doing Reiju, the Reiki experience won't hold. The Reiju needs to be on an on-going basis.

So, even with intent, the somewhat permanent attunement doesn't take place.

As we know, when the symbols are placed within a person, it usually holds.

BTW, sorry for my unsavoury symbol examples bro, i was trying ot come up with ridiculous examples, .

Take care
Wayne

How does anyone know the Reiju attunements weren't permanent? For that matter, how does one know that the Reiki attunements are?

Thaak wrote:

Milarepa wrote:

Thaak wrote:

Although, I would also argue that if your intent is positive and your intent is to attune someone to Reiki, it doesn't matter what symbol(s) you use, the person will be attuned to Reiki. Why? Because the intent is there, and the universe will allow to happen, positively, what your intent requires.

Hi buddy,
It's maybe interesting to note, that many teachers report that simply doing Reiju, the Reiki experience won't hold. The Reiju needs to be on an on-going basis.

So, even with intent, the somewhat permanent attunement doesn't take place.

As we know, when the symbols are placed within a person, it usually holds.

BTW, sorry for my unsavoury symbol examples bro, i was trying ot come up with ridiculous examples, .

Take care
Wayne

How does anyone know the Reiju attunements weren't permanent? For that matter, how does one know that the Reiki attunements are?

Hi Andy,

Seems that generalizations are always hard to backup...in spirituality especially. In Komyo, Reiju is done. I`ve received Reiju from my Komyo teacher...I certainly feel it, Reiki is apparent in this. I have witnessed others who have received Reiju who were not attuned. None of these people, that I know of, claim permanence. As far as attunments being permanent. Find a group of really old Reiki masters, and ask them...lol...I have no idea how to back up that debate one way or another, without quoting other people.

I know you and Wayne bat around theories regarding the importance of symbols. I know from your comments, that you see less importance in the symbols than Wayne and I do...fair enough...

Experiencing is knowing sometimes...

Ok....try attuning someone, use no symbols. Whats left of the attunment procedure?
Really, tell me how you would do it, and where you would start...let me know the out come...It would be fascinating.

Someone mentioned that the ritual might be the importance...the programming...the connection, setting the recipients intention, matching it with your own. Yet you have already been attuned to Reiki, so it`s possible you may be doing a form of Reiju just through this fact. I remember reading things about Usui, and yes it`s difficult to know what he did, as opposed to what many people claim he did,,,,But for what it`s worth, I remember reading about him passing Reiju, when in his students presence, without ritual. Ever notice what a calming effect some Reiki masters have on people without doing anything at all?

I know you study shamanism, and learn amazing things through those experiences. Yet in your comments, i feel sometimes,that you interpret Reiki, through a shamans eyes. Not necessarily a misleading thing, it`s your personal journey and a very enlightening one, and I relish the ideas you share, but a different perspective than a person who experiences spirituality through Reiki only. How would one separate the two? Oh no there I go thinking in a divisive duality consciousness again...that`s me....


much peace...RJ

Thaak wrote:

How does anyone know the Reiju attunements weren't permanent? For that matter, how does one know that the Reiki attunements are?

Through expereince bro. Perosnal experience with my students, when i was teaching. The Reiki expereince would disapate after a few weeks, after Reiju. Other teachers do report this also.

Also Takata sensei for one didn't do the re-attunement thing. She expereinced Reiki for 50 years or so, till she passed.

take care
Wayne