Interesting conversation. I personally feel a bit more truth toward what Frank is saying, and I've expressed such on these boards in the past. But of course my current spiritual apprenticeship lends more towards simplification and and dissolution of the need for external solutions.

If the divine, the infinite, the universe, whatever... is within me, is me, and I am a co-creator with it (we all are, I'm not just tooting my own horn here) then nothing "other than me" should be necessary.

As for whether the symbols actually hold power or not...

Since we are all co-creators of the universe, if we believe the symbols have power and that we need them, then that is true for whoever believes it. If we believe that we don't need the symbols, then that is also true, for that person as well.

I know it seems a bit paradoxical, but the laws of consensual reality do not control the realm of the unseen.

Lambs-Wool wrote:omg, thats a brilliant, amazing and enlightening thought my dear Jim

Superb!
Outstanding!

I feel proud that i communicating with gems like you and Frank.

All my love to your wisdom buddy!



Take care

Salman

Thank you Salman,


I feel the same way in regard to many of the thoughts and experiences which you have shared with this forum.

The forum is a great place to find answers to questions . Yet it is also a great place to find questions to answer with others and at times by ones self.

Jim

Thaak wrote:Interesting conversation. I personally feel a bit more truth toward what Frank is saying, and I've expressed such on these boards in the past. But of course my current spiritual apprenticeship lends more towards simplification and and dissolution of the need for external solutions.

If the divine, the infinite, the universe, whatever... is within me, is me, and I am a co-creator with it (we all are, I'm not just tooting my own horn here) then nothing "other than me" should be necessary.

As for whether the symbols actually hold power or not...

Since we are all co-creators of the universe, if we believe the symbols have power and that we need them, then that is true for whoever believes it. If we believe that we don't need the symbols, then that is also true, for that person as well.

I know it seems a bit paradoxical, but the laws of consensual reality do not control the realm of the unseen.

Andy would you be referring
to the higher-self that holds
power. It seems to me that some
folks need a visual symbol to
create/feel a power that is
already there.

Andy, within muslim thought there have been centuries old philosophical, non-dogmatic debate within areas of 'identity' of man vias-a-vis identity of god (wahdat al wajood vs. Wahdat asshahood, which can be googled too)... Since i have studied both schools, i can, to some extent, pick up on the concept of 'co-creation' as shared by you


Symbols, of course, can be viwed in terms of our 'optional' programming with them, and taken this view, we can certainly 'liberate' ouselves from the need of 'using' them.. However, i find it more difficult for myself to limit to this aspect only... When i get feeling that reiki is 'generated' spontaneously when we invoke a spiritual eddict carried through a symbol that was implanted in us, i most likely feel more inclined to the view that our spiritual association with symbols is not a 'dispensable' item, even if we apparently have chosen for it...


It is very highly paradoxical, i admit, so i may be forgiven for acting too 'pushy'


Take care

Salman

chi_solas wrote:

Andy would you be referring
to the higher-self that holds
power. It seems to me that some
folks need a visual symbol to
create/feel a power that is
already there.

Yes and no. I'm not sure I believe in a separately conscious entity known as the higher self any longer. But there certainly is a part of each of us that seems to have more awareness and knowledge than we can conveniently access consciously.

I don't, however, in my current spiritual journey, feel a need to define it any longer.

Thaak wrote:

chi_solas wrote:

Andy would you be referring
to the higher-self that holds
power. It seems to me that some
folks need a visual symbol to
create/feel a power that is
already there.

Yes and no. I'm not sure I believe in a separately conscious entity known as the higher self any longer. But there certainly is a part of each of us that seems to have more awareness and knowledge than we can conveniently access consciously.

I don't, however, in my current spiritual journey, feel a need to define it any longer.

It's my understanding that we access our
"higher self " when we are in a subconscious
state. I found that once my true spirituality
surfaced I began to focus on new ways outside
the box. Reiki symbols came into my life shortly
there-after. I find them essential when creating
a Reiki environment.

We have all had moments when we have felt a powerful reiki flow 'kick-in'......this has occured without the use of symbols, so wouldn't this suggest that Reiki does not need the use of symbols in order to apply itself?

Pachamama wrote: We have all had moments when we have felt a powerful reiki flow 'kick-in'......this has occured without the use of symbols, so wouldn't this suggest that Reiki does not need the use of symbols in order to apply itself?

It's like saying the rosary without the beads.
The symbols help keep you focused. If you are
"Reiki" the symbols are part of the whole you.

Well I don't know about the symbols being a part of the whole you, we were whole before we became involved in reiki, for me the symbols just acted as keys to certain innate doors which allow me to tap into deeper levels of my being. I've never learnt how to do initiations, so I probably have a much more limited perspective on how the symbols are involved. But I have a whole bunch of questions lined up for Tadao.....

Usui may not have needed the symbols, he is meant to have went through a process though to experience what he did. Though how many people are known that are able to experience Reiki with no symbol involvement, (it's a loaded question, i've raised before, ). Because we cant 'see' something, would that mean it doesn't exist?

As in the symbols being within us, and active. If we can stick to the middle ground, being open minded, and accept it is possible the symbols are permanetly within us, and are active, that's all that's needed. If a person then wants to discount that, to gain some form of evidence, then inadvertantly they'll may come across indications much more is going on than we can physically see, or superficially sense.

Warmest wishes
Wayne

I still do not hold the view that the symbols are 'within' me.

what exactly has helped you form this opinion?

my own innate questioning..... I appreciate that an energetic imprint can be retained in certain levels of our being ( just as we can hold on to the energetic imprints of certain memories, events, emotions....etc...) but I do not hold to the idea that an energetic imprint of a symbol can be 'placed' within someone and 'sealed' in there never to escape! ( ) we do not need to have anything placed within us, we have already got everything we need.... it's just that some inner doors are a little harder to open than others, and for me, the attunements simply acted as keys to some of those doors.

If you and many others I know feel the same way, think that the symbols are 'placed' within, then at which level of our being are they placed? if they have been 'put in' can they be removed again? what if someone recieved an attunement that wasn't so pleasant and wanted whatever symbols had supposedly be 'placed within' taken out? is there a reverse procedure available for those who may have received some unhealthy symbol from planet zorg? ( its possible, so many strains of 'Reiki' so many symbols out there who's to say some haven't been channelled from zorg??

Pachamama wrote:

If you and many others I know feel the same way, think that the symbols are 'placed' within, then at which level of our being are they placed?

i'm not sure many do feel this way. At which level are they placed, at every level.

Pachamama wrote:
if they have been 'put in' can they be removed again?

Some say they can do this, i'm not sure either way, it's beyond my skill or knowledge. It's quite a point for folks to be discerning just what spiritual process they experience though.

Pachamama wrote:
what if someone recieved an attunement that wasn't so pleasant and wanted whatever symbols had supposedly be 'placed within' taken out?

Like happened to me. For me it passed after some weeks. and now i dont use the symbols or system consciously. Folks say intent is important, but it's thought, word & deed that is.

Pachamama wrote:
is there a reverse procedure available for those who may have received some unhealthy symbol from planet zorg? ( its possible, so many strains of 'Reiki' so many symbols out there who's to say some haven't been channelled from zorg??

I don't know. And i dunno if it'd work. For me i just havn't used 2 other styles. Concentrated on Usui Shiki, and it's sorted out for me.

warmest wishes
Wayne

Milarepa wrote:

Pachamama wrote:

If you and many others I know feel the same way, think that the symbols are 'placed' within, then at which level of our being are they placed?

i'm not sure many do feel this way. At which level are they placed, at every level.

Pachamama wrote:
if they have been 'put in' can they be removed again?

Some say they can do this, i'm not sure either way, it's beyond my skill or knowledge. It's quite a point for folks to be discerning just what spiritual process they experience though.

Pachamama wrote:
what if someone recieved an attunement that wasn't so pleasant and wanted whatever symbols had supposedly be 'placed within' taken out?

Like happened to me. For me it passed after some weeks. and now i dont use the symbols or system consciously. Folks say intent is important, but it's thought, word & deed that is.

Pachamama wrote:
is there a reverse procedure available for those who may have received some unhealthy symbol from planet zorg? ( its possible, so many strains of 'Reiki' so many symbols out there who's to say some haven't been channelled from zorg??

I don't know. And i dunno if it'd work. For me i just havn't used 2 other styles. Concentrated on Usui Shiki, and it's sorted out for me.

warmest wishes
Wayne

hmm, so you had some dodgy attunement? ( forgive me if I should remember this, its been a while since I've been on these boards) and you believe that the symbols used are still 'inside' you??

It's thinking like this that leads to people having irrational thoughts about what is real and what is not real, leading to mental health issues! The whole idea of a symbol being 'placed' within me, makes no sense to me what so ever. Whether it be for good or bad, placing some external symbol 'within' another person for the rest of their life, would be a violation of the highest order. As I said, we already have everything we need within us, for me the energetic imprinting of these symbols simply acted at keys to doors. I embarked on a healing course a few years back with an Australian lady, she was a fantastic healer, although I had a few issues with her, the postives definately outweighed the negatives. One comment she made was in using tools in regards to healing, she emphasised not relying too much on tools for healing, she said why use tools when we all have direct access to the source of healing? without realising it, people can limit their healing potential by being bound by tools. Tools come in many forms, rituals, routines, mantras, physical activities, using certain sounds, smells, images etc etc....

I believe these things have a place in healing, as they can help set up the appropriate environment conducive to consciousness expansion and tapping into the source of healing......but to become reliant upon them to the point that one feels one cannot heal without using them is extremely unfortunate and limiting.

For years I wore an amethyst crystal around my neck which sat over my heart, and it always made me feel connected and healthy..... when the chain broke and I couldn't wear it anymore, I felt empty for a little while, then I got over my own self limiting mindset and laughed at myself, realising that what I projected onto the 'power of the crystal' was just infact a part of who I was already and the crystal just acted as a tool to allow me to show that part off.

sorry for waffling so much, there is a point in there somewhere!