hi there!

we have had certain discussions on the points that when we do reiki, symbols are activated on a sub-conscious levels even when we dont apparently choose to draw one or all of them...


my question here is exactly which symbol gets activated first in the process....


some possible thoughts :

HSZSN is activated first of all, since once it establishes connecction, rest of symbols follow to do their respective work

OR

no, no, CKR is activated first of all, since unless we have a focus, we can't activate HSZSN to its true working


OR

no, no, its actually DKM which is activated first, since it is the master symbol, not only it is the symbol of masters but itself embodies a clue / link direct to the lineage, and thus unless DKM is activated first, no other symbols can ?


OR

what else ??


Cheers

salman

This is very interesting question Salman.

I do not remember being told any universal rule in this regard but it depends what you are about to do. I usually do DKM first but it is rather for me before beginning of the session. I do DKM first also if I do distant reiki.

As for the session I usually go first with SHK and than CKR.

Regards,

Resko

rzukic wrote:This is very interesting question Salman.

I do not remember being told any universal rule in this regard but it depends what you are about to do. I usually do DKM first but it is rather for me before beginning of the session. I do DKM first also if I do distant reiki.

As for the session I usually go first with SHK and than CKR.

Regards,

Resko

starting note : yes, thanks for completing my question, infact it sure depends what we are about to do...


my question was pointed at choronology with which symbols are activated when not used consciously by the practitioner, but you have added just a nice other side by including the issue of the 'order' in which the symbols are drawn by the practitioner...


re : using DKM before entering a session, some folks would argue that DKM sets intent for doing an initiation, in the same manner that when we intend to do initiation, DKM is automatically activated


technically, it needs to be thrashed out that if we use DKM beofre or during our treatment sessions, are we unintentionally bringing about initiation of the patient too ? thats a big leap, oh


secondly, you have shared that you use SHK and then CKR... it is interesting


it has become rather an SOP to use CKR to 'empower' other symbols and/or to increase the poetential of such symbols... while logically this has appeal, but is that practice warranted by Hayashi or Takata sensei(s) ?


thanks for response bro


take care

Lambs-Wool wrote:
my question was pointed at choronology with which symbols are activated when not used consciously by the practitioner,

Hello Lambs-Wool

This is an interesting question, but can our answers ever be more than speculation? How do we observe what "other-than-conscious" actions are taking place?

Lambs-Wool wrote:
secondly, you have shared that you use SHK and then CKR... it is interesting


it has become rather an SOP to use CKR to 'empower' other symbols and/or to increase the poetential of such symbols... while logically this has appeal, but is that practice warranted by Hayashi or Takata sensei(s) ?

What Resko says is in harmony with the way Takata taught, SHK then the CKR. And because there are so many differing views on the purpose and use of the CKR, it is quite difficult to be exact about Takata's real understanding of its use. She often said that CKR "brings the power", increases the intensity (if that is the right word) of Reiki, but did she mean it also increased the intensity of the SHK or the HSZSN? Can we ever truly know another persons mind?




EZRI

It could have meant it increased the effect of SHK & HSZSN, by the command of CKR on top of either the other two. The first two being the initial objective/wish for the Reiki experience to materialize, with the CKR being the command for the focus to be on the objective.

So yeah, i think the order of the symbols indicates a lot. Unless CKR was first, then SHK, that would be different. But with SHK, then CKR on top, knowing what we do know she said bout CKR, it tells a lot?

EzriReiki wrote:

Lambs-Wool wrote:
my question was pointed at choronology with which symbols are activated when not used consciously by the practitioner,

Hello Lambs-Wool

This is an interesting question, but can our answers ever be more than speculation? How do we observe what "other-than-conscious" actions are taking place?

Hello Ezri

a speculative question brings many things onboard that may sometimes have the strength of validating the question itself... (emphasis is on sometimes though )

when someone gets initiated within reiki, he has permanent accessiblity, so far as there is a general consensus... we may put it in a way that reiki becomes hardwired within or with his presence.


when we use the term in a way 'other-than-conscious' (may it be un-consciuosly, or sub-conciously, who knows !), we may borrow analogy of serveral things occuring 'automatically' within us, without our conscious effort (or better saying our concsious involvement)... adernaline rising, mercury rising, oozing of acid from stomach walls in stress, and so on...

these are all physical responses of things that had been hardwired within us... if we place this much emphasis on symbols, and feel they are energetically imprinted within us, it is not 'impossible' to assume for a second that they are likewise automatically activated...

that this view is not supported academically or historically, is yet another debate

Ezri wrote:

Lambs-Wool wrote:
secondly, you have shared that you use SHK and then CKR... it is interesting


it has become rather an SOP to use CKR to 'empower' other symbols and/or to increase the poetential of such symbols... while logically this has appeal, but is that practice warranted by Hayashi or Takata sensei(s) ?

What Resko says is in harmony with the way Takata taught, SHK then the CKR. And because there are so many differing views on the purpose and use of the CKR, it is quite difficult to be exact about Takata's real understanding of its use. She often said that CKR "brings the power", increases the intensity (if that is the right word) of Reiki, but did she mean it also increased the intensity of the SHK or the HSZSN? Can we ever truly know another persons mind?

exactly, thats a point to consider that whether one symbol can superimpose on another to 'intensify' it ? CKR intesifying SHK is a good concept and has appeal, but if we cannot find real evidence of yes or no from Takata, whats best for us ? leave the question to personal experiences, and wait, or to ask the peers, elders which we have access through this forum, so that we have multiple views to consider, analyse, interpret, and to say yes to


Cheers!



learning is always a fun for me, the questions aren't !


take care

hai salman,

If i think as your way than there is confusion, means all this symbol philosophy come upto some level than after no need to symbol everything happened by only thoughts. So which level you want to knew if it is upto second level of reiki than my view we need to used chk first and than all symbol and same as master level but but if you have also done more than master than there is lot of option which we can used according to situation and it will all come by experiences and than lot master level than another level that is without symbol level. So now you decide which level you are talking .

thanks and love
vj

Lambs-Wool wrote:

EzriReiki wrote:

Lambs-Wool wrote:
my question was pointed at choronology with which symbols are activated when not used consciously by the practitioner,

Hello Lambs-Wool

This is an interesting question, but can our answers ever be more than speculation? How do we observe what "other-than-conscious" actions are taking place?

Hello Ezri

a speculative question brings many things onboard that may sometimes have the strength of validating the question itself... (emphasis is on sometimes though )

when someone gets initiated within reiki, he has permanent accessiblity, so far as there is a general consensus... we may put it in a way that reiki becomes hardwired within or with his presence.


when we use the term in a way 'other-than-conscious' (may it be un-consciuosly, or sub-conciously, who knows !), we may borrow analogy of serveral things occuring 'automatically' within us, without our conscious effort (or better saying our concsious involvement)... adernaline rising, mercury rising, oozing of acid from stomach walls in stress, and so on...

these are all physical responses of things that had been hardwired within us... if we place this much emphasis on symbols, and feel they are energetically imprinted within us, it is not 'impossible' to assume for a second that they are likewise automatically activated...

that this view is not supported academically or historically, is yet another debate

Ezri wrote:

Lambs-Wool wrote:
secondly, you have shared that you use SHK and then CKR... it is interesting


it has become rather an SOP to use CKR to 'empower' other symbols and/or to increase the poetential of such symbols... while logically this has appeal, but is that practice warranted by Hayashi or Takata sensei(s) ?

What Resko says is in harmony with the way Takata taught, SHK then the CKR. And because there are so many differing views on the purpose and use of the CKR, it is quite difficult to be exact about Takata's real understanding of its use. She often said that CKR "brings the power", increases the intensity (if that is the right word) of Reiki, but did she mean it also increased the intensity of the SHK or the HSZSN? Can we ever truly know another persons mind?

exactly, thats a point to consider that whether one symbol can superimpose on another to 'intensify' it ? CKR intesifying SHK is a good concept and has appeal, but if we cannot find real evidence of yes or no from Takata, whats best for us ? leave the question to personal experiences, and wait, or to ask the peers, elders which we have access through this forum, so that we have multiple views to consider, analyse, interpret, and to say yes to


Cheers!



learning is always a fun for me, the questions aren't !


take care

Hi Salman,

I agree with you that learning is fun ..but the questions are part of the process so speaking of questions (even though I was looking for answers... I even got my 2nd cup of coffee but still I had more questions than the answers) here are some to consider:

It looks like we have two options here:

1.CKR indeed “empowers” SHK and ...this is actually what we wanted Yeeeahh!
2.CKR doesn't “empower” SHK...well.. what do you think happens than.
a)CKR overrides SHK
b)CKR and SHK both work independently
c)Or do they neutralize each other.

Regards,

Resko

Discover How Learning Reiki Can Change Your Life

rzukic wrote:
It looks like we have two options here:

1.CKR indeed “empowers” SHK and ...this is actually what we wanted Yeeeahh!
2.CKR doesn't “empower” SHK...well.. what do you think happens than.
a)CKR overrides SHK
b)CKR and SHK both work independently
c)Or do they neutralize each other.

Regards,

Resko

hi Resko


thanks for that decision stub

if we say that CKR powers up SHK for emotional healing, could it be the same basis to say that SHK 'refines/harmonises'CKR to put the power more augmentally ?

this i had to say, although i myself dont feel happy saying it, since it would be just beating about the bush... but at least, through such arguments, we can find logical appeal (or absence of it) in the long established thing that CKR powers up SHK...

on the other day, i was reading James on his website on the issue that 'were symbols introduced later into the system by Usui' ?

in explaining James has given a possiblity that symbols were made known to people later in the life cycle of reiki, does not necessarily mean that symbols were discoverd later... he goes on explaining that Usui would not tell a shoden level disciple that there would be any symbols in next level... and similarly would not tell okuden level student that there is a 'fourth' symbol in next level... and exactly what i m trying to derive from this long story ?


if a student had been experiencing reiki for lets say one or two years at shoden level, and this too under personal guidance of Usui himself, where he would be receiving all along powerful reiju too, what 'new' thing would have been brought to that student when Usui would initiate him to okuden ?

i see, more power, more harmony ? just that ? means that if a student would have gone some couple of years more in his status quo (i.e., remaining at shoden) he would invariably have somehow achieved or tasted this 'more power' and 'more harmony' by the richness of his shoden expreinces already, and so what he'd have missed by not being initiated to okuden ??


this leads us to say that 'more power', 'more power' is not the 'substance' of the symbols, these are just their commonly expeienced traits or effects...


and on this note, i'd rather feel safe to say that neither symbols empower each other, nor they work independently, rather they elevate their essence far above these visible effects... maybe they carry different spiritual essences, and not necessarily in the direction of earth chi and heavenly chi, as we sometimes hear here and there...


well, its a topic of worth study, and i've jst started that

take care

salman

EDITED today, April 29th, 2010 :

salman wrote:
if we say that CKR powers up SHK for emotional healing, could it be the same basis to say that SHK 'refines/harmonises'CKR to put the power more augmentally ?

i now feel that my question may be dropped

i was taking a linear view of 'functions' of symbol while posting above question.. if i take the essence of symbols in the mainstream, it will run as follows :

to put CKR over SHK during Seheki Chiyaro ho, is not just to put more power into SHK.. there might be other possiblities too... ??


take care

salman

hi Vijay

vijaybali wrote:
If i think as your way than there is confusion, means all this symbol philosophy come upto some level than after no need to symbol everything happened by only thoughts.

we were already into the debate that whether symbols are activated automatically (something you have referred as 'everything happened only by thought')

honestly speaking i was once believer of the view that 'things happen by thought', but now studying into reiki (and also some non-related things), i m subscribing to view, that intention alone is something universe does not own as 'coming from us' to trigger a change... intention needs to brought into action... and words spoken for one's intention are the first proof that intention has been 'put into work'

vijaybali wrote:
......if it is upto second level of reiki than my view we need to used chk first and than all symbol and same as master level

thanks for your views, this was my intention for floating the topic

vijaybali wrote:

but but if you have also done more than master than there is lot of option which we can used according to situation and it will all come by experiences and than lot master level than another level that is without symbol level.

beyond shinipden level ? i think there is one we call 'shihan' (somewhat we have are now used to use the phrase indiscriminately as 'grand master')... were you referring to 'shihan' level ?


whether if symbols are or are not used at shihan level, is something i need to study to answer better



take care bro

salman

Hi Salman,

It looks like we getting more and more questions and I guess this is inevitable when we use our head to try to understand Reiki and the Symbols but than again how can we leave the head out of equation

As to the study I was wondering (since we have many very experienced reiki and energy masters/user or what ever we want to be called) if we could do something as a group in this regard.

I believe we all want to know more and that is the benefit of the team (together everybody achieves more).

So what do you say, guys? Can anybody come up with some idea?

Thank You All,

Regards,

Resko

Discover How Learning Reiki Can Change Your Life

Lambs-Wool wrote:

honestly speaking i was once believer of the view that 'things happen by thought', but now studying into reiki (and also some non-related things), i m subscribing to view, that intention alone is something universe does not own as 'coming from us' to trigger a change... intention needs to brought into action... and words spoken for one's intention are the first proof that intention has been 'put into work'

Salman, the use of "thoughts" as VJ says and "words spoken for one's intention" to bring something "into action" sounds very much like the teaching of sanmitsu, the Three Mysteries, of Kukai's Shingon tradition. The Three Mysteries are Thought, Word and Deed (or Action). Here is a quote that relates these to the achivement of Enlightenment:

Exoterically, enlightenment is an experience which utterly transcends any conceivable formulation in language. Esoterically, True Words (shingon) correspond to Mahavairochana, and it is possible to experience Truth through mantras (sacred sounds), mudras (sacred gestures), samayas (symbols) and mandalas (sacred diagrams). Thirdly, what are the effects of the two kinds of teaching? Exoterically, the path to enlightenment is seen as gradual and requiring a virtual infinitude of lives to be traversed to the goal. Esoterically, the practice of sanmitsu, using samadhi (meditation), mantra and mudra to concentrate wholly mind, speech and body, can lead directly to union with Mahavairochana. However statistically remote such a probability may be for any human being, it is nonetheless possible to attain enlightenment in one's present body.

Source = http://theosophytrust.org/tlodocs/articlesTeacher.php?d=Kukai.htm&p=73

When we discover that the Cosmic Buddha, Mahavairochana (Dainichi Nyorai in Japanese) is also known as "The Great Illuminator" or "Great Shining Light" (same as DKM) and that the sanmitsu , along with other aspects of Shingon, were adopted by practitioners of Shugendo (Shugenja), which Mikao Usui is also said to have studied and that these teachings also influenced ninjutsu and other martial arts, including Yagyu Ryu (again something with which Usui may have been associated with), we can maybe see where the teaching of intent, symbols (shirushi) and mantras (jumon) in Reiki has originated also.

So, it would appear that each symbol could in fact be used in isolation, if the formula of thought, word and deed is applied. Indeed, this is often taught in the various Japanese styles of Reiki. The use of combinations of symbols, e.g. SHK followed by CKR is really just using a combination of the individual qualities of each symbol together. In this case, focusing or "directing" the "spiritual energy" to a particular area, related to the subconscious, in combination with the specific qualities of SHK and the intent to change a specific behaviour (which may be spoken out loud or internally).

Lambs-Wool wrote:
beyond shinipden level ? i think there is one we call 'shihan' (somewhat we have are now used to use the phrase indiscriminately as 'grand master')... were you referring to 'shihan' level ?


whether if symbols are or are not used at shihan level, is something i need to study to answer better



take care bro

salman

Shihan level simply designates a person who has received Shinpiden and is also able to teach others, so nothing extra is used at this level as far as techniques and symbols is concerned.

hi Resko

rzukic wrote:Hi Salman,

It looks like we getting more and more questions and I guess this is inevitable when we use our head to try to understand Reiki and the Symbols but than again how can we leave the head out of equation

as such, leaving head out of equation is no good either

started with a heart approach into reiki, i initially regarded my feelings and experiences into reiki to be sorta overshadowing the established theories and facts and research..... it was a feeling as if reiki has been reborn for me to discover it again (sick ), this was truly a heart approach, where we trust no other but our intuition and our experiences...


but as soon as i kinda got 'used to' such expriences, things raised their tiny heads int the due course.... the questions of what, and more specifically the questions of 'how' and 'why' kept hammering me, and my experiences alone were not able to answer these questions....

this led me to plunge into an otherwise daunting task of going into factual details of reiki, and the first thing i found challenging to deal was the 'reiki history'... as the process of my study into reiki has just started, i m coming to many new things... (this is how i put my head as well into reiki)......


and how the start of study changed my experiences ? i would say, greatly!... with every fact i discover new daily, my experience shapes up to include that knowledge accordingly... so not only the knowledge expands, but its expansion has to be accommodated by experience side too... precisely speaking, experience (or heart factor) is always eager to imbibe everything that head factor (knowledge) prompts us to...

ah, i see, i m getting sentimental

Resko wrote:
As to the study I was wondering............if we could do something as a group in this regard.

I believe we all want to know more and that is the benefit of the team (together everybody achieves more).

So what do you say, guys? Can anybody come up with some idea?

that is a great idea, and forums do this indirectly already... like we have groups 'moderator' 'forum promoter' 'administrator', we may have groups like 'researcher' or something ? and if we make such group, does the responsibility of research will become the sole purview of such group, an effect to 'releive' others of the aspect ?

plus, the people who dedicate themselves to research, always come up with an attitude of 'i know more' and this creates nascent hickups among members sometimes...

however, your idea can be put into something like there is a group of people researching for a topic, and some member of the forum promoter group or admin group becoms 'ex-officio' Co-ordinator for that group research...


thanks for afloating this idea bro !


take care

salman

Hi Colin

Colin wrote:
Salman, the use of "thoughts" as VJ says and "words spoken for one's intention" to bring something "into action" sounds very much like the teaching of sanmitsu, the Three Mysteries, of Kukai's Shingon tradition. The Three Mysteries are Thought, Word and Deed (or Action).

the combination of "Thought, Word and Deed" is lately a superb discovery for me... even when i studied various religious ptractices within Islam in that backdrop, i was amazed that this combination has been specially taken care in those practices too..

of course there is a great mystery, as well as blessing, in this combination !

Colin wrote:

Here is a quote that relates these to the achivement of Enlightenment:
Source = http://theosophytrust.org/tlodocs/articlesTeacher.php?d=Kukai.htm&p=73

When we discover that the Cosmic Buddha, Mahavairochana (Dainichi Nyorai in Japanese) is also known as "The Great Illuminator" or "Great Shining Light" (same as DKM) and that the sanmitsu , along with other aspects of Shingon, were adopted by practitioners of Shugendo (Shugenja), which Mikao Usui is also said to have studied and that these teachings also influenced ninjutsu and other martial arts, including Yagyu Ryu (again something with which Usui may have been associated with), we can maybe see where the teaching of intent, symbols (shirushi) and mantras (jumon) in Reiki has originated also.

having no background of the shinogen and shugendo sects, and also not really infomred that which of them is an offshoot or shinto, and which is based in tendai bhuddism, i would need to take all the above detail with proper focus Colin... i may come to these points after some after some study

Colin wrote:
So, it would appear that each symbol could in fact be used in isolation, if the formula of thought, word and deed is applied. Indeed, this is often taught in the various Japanese styles of Reiki. The use of combinations of symbols, e.g. SHK followed by CKR is really just using a combination of the individual qualities of each symbol together. In this case, focusing or "directing" the "spiritual energy" to a particular area, related to the subconscious, in combination with the specific qualities of SHK and the intent to change a specific behaviour (which may be spoken out loud or internally).

that expands the thoughts i have on these matters... i will come up with more soon


take care

salman

hi Salam

honestly speaking i was once believer of the view that 'things happen by thought', but now studying into reiki (and also some non-related things), i m subscribing to view, that intention alone is something universe does not own as 'coming from us' to trigger a change... intention needs to brought into action... and words spoken for one's intention are the first proof that intention has been 'put into work'

we are only source not more than this so need to worry what work or what not work it is not our area it is area of super power. Whatever thing super power like he/she bring in action. So not worry what work or not just try all way and one day automatically we will learn by experience.

beyond shinipden level ? i think there is one we call 'shihan' (somewhat we have are now used to use the phrase indiscriminately as 'grand master')... were you referring to 'shihan' level ?

now days people started many type of reiki and different name and all of them has many thing which give more idea pratise of reiki which help us to progress in spritiuality for that i mention more and master degree here not related to perticular reiki.....

And i last i feel we need to explore your idea mean we can try all those way which we not taught in our degree like why not we clean the place with shk etc..... and why we connect with hon sha zen sho nen for connection we can also try chk for that it is just experiment. but all thing required time so those have time todo and share your experience we are very oblige to him..

thanks
vj


edited 4/2 fix quotes Bridget






take care bro

salman