I'm glad to hear that although your kids are going to catholic school,they will not be limited to only hearing about the 'catholic' way.... I was lucky as a girl because one of my best friends was a Hindu girl and my eyes were opened to some of their wonderful traditions and spirituality...... catholicism seemed souless in comparisson although I absolutely adored singing the hymms...

by the time I went to secondary school I went to a mixed religion schoo.l which was far better.... RE was one of my favourite subjects because we learned about traditions from around the globe.... my kids go to a C of E school but although there is a strong Christian flavour, they are also taught about faiths from around the globe....wonderful stuff!!

as for the weather well its absolutely stunning!! but freezing brrrr....thankfully my kids all went back to school yesterday,( YEEHOOOOO) they should have returned Tuesday, but the snow stopped play as it did the nation over, the hubby moved the car today for the first time in about 3 weeks!!!! apparently there is more heavy snow due sunday...which will be most annoying if the schools are closed again on Monday....

I find that Religions in general plays a big role
in politics world wide.If we take the Christmas
theme which Christians world wide celebrate and
implement peace & goodwill, is also a theme that
other religions like Baha'i, Buddhism,Confucianism,
Hinduism, Islam, Jainism, Judaism, Shinto, Sikhism,
Taoism, Wicca, Zoroastrianism, and Druidism would
also share /promote peace & goodwill among their
neighbors and those who are not involved in organized
religions would do the same. Think how much peace &
goodwill energy would become active worldwide

Like the soldiers in those trenches, none of them wanted
to be there, for a short time "Silent Night" prevailed

It's definitely true, religion's are tied in with politics. sometimes this works (tibet), other times it doesn't.

Does this mean that the religion is somehow 'wrong', 'bad', or 'useless'. Or, does it mean that the folks whom can manipulate it are? Cause religion is'nt a conscious entity itself. It's a sociological model that runs according to a group of humans wishes.

If the model of religion could work in Tibet, why can't it work in other countries. That's very interesting. Is it more to do with the mindset of folks, even collective groups, that distort spiritual paths to their own desires?

Something must account for the anomaly. .

Edit: I was just realising. Although folks will call me Irish, my nationality is actually British. folks in N.Ireland have dual nationality claim. Cause i came from protestant background i was brought up British. Just wanna point out, incase it seems an irish guy is saying negative things about the British (incase that's offensive), that i'm in fact speaking about my own nationality. I just got a different accent, .

Take care
Wayne

Milarepa wrote:It's definitely true, religion's are tied in with politics. sometimes this works (tibet), other times it doesn't.

Does this mean that the religion is somehow 'wrong', 'bad', or 'useless'. Or, does it mean that the folks whom can manipulate it are? Cause religion is'nt a conscious entity itself. It's a sociological model that runs according to a group of humans wishes.

If the model of religion could work in Tibet, why can't it work in other countries. That's very interesting. Is it more to do with the mindset of folks, even collective groups, that distort spiritual paths to their own desires?

Something must account for the anomaly. .

Edit: I was just realising. Although folks will call me Irish, my nationality is actually British. folks in N.Ireland have dual nationality claim. Cause i came from protestant background i was brought up British. Just wanna point out, incase it seems an irish guy is saying negative things about the British (incase that's offensive), that i'm in fact speaking about my own nationality. I just got a different accent, .

Take care
Wayne

I was looking to see if this thread
could be moved out of events but
there's is no category for Politics &
Religion. So I guess this is an on
going event

Folks join religious/or political groups
because they believe in what the group
stands for. So we label ourselves according
to the group we want to be identified with.
We can either be a leader in the group or a
follower. We may not believe in the groups
philosophy but we join cause we get fringe
benefits from the group that serve a purpose.

chi_solas wrote:

Milarepa wrote:It's definitely true, religion's are tied in with politics. sometimes this works (tibet), other times it doesn't.

Does this mean that the religion is somehow 'wrong', 'bad', or 'useless'. Or, does it mean that the folks whom can manipulate it are? Cause religion is'nt a conscious entity itself. It's a sociological model that runs according to a group of humans wishes.

If the model of religion could work in Tibet, why can't it work in other countries. That's very interesting. Is it more to do with the mindset of folks, even collective groups, that distort spiritual paths to their own desires?

Something must account for the anomaly. .

Edit: I was just realising. Although folks will call me Irish, my nationality is actually British. folks in N.Ireland have dual nationality claim. Cause i came from protestant background i was brought up British. Just wanna point out, incase it seems an irish guy is saying negative things about the British (incase that's offensive), that i'm in fact speaking about my own nationality. I just got a different accent, .

Take care
Wayne

I was looking to see if this thread
could be moved out of events but
there's is no category for Politics &
Religion. So I guess this is an on
going event

Folks join religious/or political groups
because they believe in what the group
stands for. So we label ourselves according
to the group we want to be identified with.
We can either be a leader in the group or a
follower. We may not believe in the groups
philosophy but we join cause we get fringe
benefits from the group that serve a purpose.

I was reading "Making Miracles" and came across
how do we survive terminal illness/lethal environments.
This issue ties in with "religion & politics" and
the "Silent Night" theme of 1941 how do we survive
when all hope seems to be gone?

Making Miracles page 248.......
People who have survived terminal illness and people who have survived lethal environments share some basic qualities. For example , the few people who lived through the horrors of the nazi concentration camps remained hopeful despite the hopelessness of the situation. In None of Us Return, Charlotte Delbo offers a graphic depiction of the differences in attitudes between the narrator and another prisoner:
“there’s no hope for us.”
And her hand makes a gesture and the gesture envokes rising smoke.
“We must fight with all our strength.’
“Why?….Why fight since all of us have to…” The hand completes the gesture. Rising smoke.
No. We must fight.”
“How can we hope to get out of here? How could anyone ever get out of here? It would be better to throw ourselves on the barbed wire right now.”
What is there to say to her? She is small, sickly. And I am unable to persuade myself. All arguments are senseless. I am at odds with my reason. One is at odds with all reason.
Counter to rational logic, those who gave the most of themselves fared the best in the death camps. Giving to others actually aided survival. In The Survivor, Terence Des Pres quotes a Treblinka survivor: “ in our group we shared everything; and the moment one of the group ate something without sharing it ,we knew it was the beginning of the end for him.” Those who continued to live consistently served others. According to Stephine Levine, they were the “doctors, the nuns, the priests, the rabbis, the mothering, and the fathering care-givers. They survived because they had a reason to live: love itself, healing itself.
They knew that love is the only gift worth living. That our care for others is our care for ourselves, a deep honoring of being we all share.” Love brought meaning to the concentration camp survivors and to all survivors of serious illness.

Hi Shakti,

Man I just love the way you say things sometimes...

Shakti ~ Rising wrote:

I think there is a certain type of detached spirituality in christianity( and many religions).....they see god as being an external force completely seperate from themselves and they see themslevs as having been saved.... from what exactly??...then there is the whole sin thing, then there is the whole hell thing, then there is the whole guilt thing,
then there is the whole only christians have the monoply on god thing and then there is the whole god is a male thing....does that mean he has a willy?.....

No doubt it`s detached,considering that you can`t reach God unless you do so in a way that honors the belief system of the church you belong to, and the middleman who runs it...
One thing is for sure, some of what is taught should be changed so that it applies to a slightly more aware, better educated audience. Authority does not have as much influence as it once had, so we will question some things, instead of being blind followers controlled by fear of what the church could do to us as individuals socially.

Actually...I think alot of things have been twisted, for example, the "saved" thing...More or less, I see this as a way of protecting the church from it`s own demise as much as anything. Fear again...used to control us as a race...in that...only the church can save you from "eternal damnntion"...Well if we do not adopt and practice what the church offers, then the church ceases to exist based on the fact that it really has nothing to offer other than salvation. God forbid, if we look for salvation through our own eyes and a direct connection to our divine nature...that leaves the church out of the picture.
Sin,hell and guilt...lovely...just makes ya wanna kneel down and have one continuous shower that lasts about 10 years just to scrub the dirt off of our impure nature...
It would seem to me that religion has become more a tool of control than a vehicle of enlightenment. I guess the powers that be , have little confidence in our ability to evolve, so they have decided to do "whats best for us"...

The "Gods a man" thing...well that`s out dated. Yet really it`s just a feeble attempt from mankind to define something that our little minds struggle with. Male, female, yeah what ever. Funny thing is i still see new age people assigning genders to different energies, and tying the energy to a god or goddess for that matter...My Komyo teacher, bless her heart, mentioned more than once that we were working with Kannon, this being a feminine energy....yeah ok. If that`s what you need to connect go for it....divine energy has no gender in my world, just different effects and flavors. With that said, i have this attraction to Amida butsu a male deity that`s an important part of Pure Land sect Buddhism...The gender tag matters little to me, what matters is what this deity represents. I hope it`s that way for most and that gender is just a form of familiarity we need.

As far as God having a willy....I`m not sure, but if he does, i bet it`s really big!

Shakti ~ Rising wrote:
and I disagree with what you said wayne...if all religious festivals ceased there would be no goodwill at those times...I think true spirituality would take its rightful place at those sacred times..... get rid of the man made religion and inate spirituality will take its rightful place.....

but as you mentioned in an earlier post so many people rely on religion..they use it as a crutch because they have been conditioned to become spiritual cripples without it....

i think I`m gonna agree with Wayne. I`m presently in a blue collar town which exists through the oil industry....this place is full of the hardest people i have ever met in all my years on this planet...The Christmas season did soften these folks a bit. They forgot the pressures and bad environments that they work in and actually did seem to share goodwill towards other men instead of the "I got mine,too bad for you" mentality that this town usually runs on.
So...My take after 47 years of trying to learn about people and society in general...In my opinion, for what it`s worth...There are many people who will never experience any sort of spiritual connection that will be realized on a personal level. Alot of the masses have been programmed to work hard, programmed to sacrifice themselves, their happiness and the happiness of their families in pursuit of material security. The identity I see here in the west is,,,I am the car that I drive, the jewelry that i wear, the neighborhood I live in. It` ironic in that there are alot of people here in the west that have the resources to buy the time needed to pursue self growth and enlightenment. Instead they pursue Hummers, ridiculously big homes and see everyone as the competition instead of their brothers and sisters trying to survive in harmony...
So really until a few generations of people are born and raised to see the world and it`s people as one connected unit, dependent on each other, we have little hope...of changing the planet and it`s religions into something new...Individual people can be brilliant, enlightened, compassionate and caring. The masses are blind, fear based reactionary and dangerous to themselves and the planet.

Look at what we do environmentally...any doubt?

We have wealth beyond belief...yet we make not much more than gestures to help those who struggle.

It`s funny in that some organized religions teach some very special ideas that do help us evolve and live in peace. But at the same time, some of these systems have been twisted, mostly for political reasons to maintain power, and at times, to be used as an excuse to take wealth from other countries, countries of course, who worship other Gods. I remember George Bush using the "God" word alot when he was rallying the people of the United States, and the world for that matter, to send their children to the middle east to fight Terrorism. It just so happens that there is alot of oil in that part of the world as well. Killing people in the name of God again...there`s the twist.

If I could say one thing about Christianity...

Read and interpret Christianity as an individual...do not ask the church or any of it`s leaders for direction...See how you interpret the messages contained on your own...Do not be in a hurry for the answers, life will show you the answers to your questions...in time. Develope a personal relationship with God and do not let anyone else define this relationship...I did this myself about 20 years ago. i found many great teachings in the christian religion, and i also found some crap probably included through some political intervention designed to maintain the stability for the powers of that time...

As we all know...a spiritual journey tends to be a thing one walks alone...It`s mostly not a group sport, that is, if one is looking for a truly profound and understood connection with the divine entities of this Universe.

Religion, to me is okay in itself...It`s the leadership positions, more than the individuals who occupy those positions,that have become corrupt through political and social pressure, and thousands of years of such influence. There are many great things in most generally accepted religions, it comes down to what one chooses to take from the experience...


RJ

RJ's that's a lot of great thinking
and lots of thought to the root of what
some folks refer to as evil politics and
religions role in how they might direct
their flock.

Peace & Goowill To All

chi_solas wrote: RJ's that's a lot of great thinking
and lots of thought to the root of what
some folks refer to as evil politics and
religions role in how they might direct
their flock.

Peace & Goowill To All

Hi Bridget,

Who knows...? I could be way off base. Just the thoughts I had in the moment...Regardless, thanks for the compliment Bridget.

RJ

This is all good stuff, . What we're maybe not realising (just going by all our comments) is that our own experiences & understandings of religion, is only valid for us.

There's no proper, right or ultimate way to experience God. Just like there's no proper, right or ultimate way to prepare a potato. What forms our opinions is the media machine to a large extent, and this revels in bringing the bad details from around the world. Before long, we become brainwashed & conditioned, that it's in fact these structured religious paths that are doing these things. There's much hope, love & support religions bring. I'll give an example, well a few...

According to Islam, as well as helping others, it's a muslims duty to help another muslim in need. When i was a practicing muslim i was so thankful for that. I got stranded in england, and muslims helped bring me back to Ireland. They gave me two houses to for myself to live in. Also, down in dublin, i was sad one time and took an overdose. Two muslim doctors went to the cashpoint and got me loads of cash, to get home on christmas eve. The Salvation Army have also helped me lots of times before, with food when i was starving, as well as preists & convents. There's much love, assitance, cameraderie & freindship in religions. If God isn't a sign of that, i don't know what is. Then when we look to Reiki forums, were alrgely folks are on independant spiritual paths. There's very, very few will help another person, when we look at the sunday Reiki shares, of requests for healing, and i include myself in that of course. Makes a person think...

There is, without a doubt, countless folks whom have an intensely divine experience through religion. There's no heirarchy in spiritual paths, and no difference between a christian or a 'spiritual person'. If both are true to what they wish, both are spiritual people. And both are also free, experiencing God, in a way that suits them, cause they choose to expereince it that way.

Not following a religion, and sticking to personal spirituality doesn't make one anymore evolved than a buddhist or Muslim. It's the thought, word & deed that counts, not the platform used to develop it, .

Point for you Jim, very good post, and you're pushed for time also, so it's more valuable!

Take care
Wayne

firstly let me say excellent post Jim!....particularly the willy comment!! ahahaha

secondly I like to say to Bridget millions of people don't choose their religion, a particular religion can be enforced upon them before they are even old enough to say poopoo.... then all the fundamentalist views of the parents are enforced upon the child being raised....and so a very unhealthy cycle continues.....

thirdly...wayne, you said there is no right proper or ultimate way to experience god..... you and I and most rational thinking people would agree with that, but many religions and people who subscribe to those religions would disagree with that.......as they have become brainwashed and conditioned to believe that only their religion is the 'true path to god'. now I'm not suggesting all religous folk feel this way but I would suggest most do......

going now, being human is on....love it!!

Shakti ~ Rising wrote:
secondly I like to say to Bridget millions of people don't choose their religion, a particular religion can be enforced upon them before they are even old enough to say poopoo.... then all the fundamentalist views of the parents are enforced upon the child being raised....and so a very unhealthy cycle continues.....

Is it being 'forced upon' them though, in general? Or is it more parents trying to pass on that which they feel is in the paramount interests of the child? Unless we came from an abusive family, we largely do willingly pass on things to our kids we also expereinced. It could be something as obvious as religion, or it could be many things more subtle.

If folks do this with religion, there's no reason why they wouldn't do it with any other sociological model, such as politics. Should we do away with Labour, cause a family has been brought up labour (political party) for generations. Course not. Is it labours fault, course not.

Shakti ~ Rising wrote:
thirdly...wayne, you said there is no right proper or ultimate way to experience god..... you and I and most rational thinking people would agree with that, but many religions and people who subscribe to those religions would disagree with that.......as they have become brainwashed and conditioned to believe that only their religion is the 'true path to god'. now I'm not suggesting all religous folk feel this way but I would suggest most do......

Your point is a valid one, and worth a point. From expereince, Buddhism & Islam isn't like this. Buddhism rejoices whatever religion is followed, and Islam celebrates their Jewish & christian brothers/sisters. In fact, the Holy Qu'ran says Christians aren't to be harmed, but helped if need be. I'm less expereinced in Gnostic Chrisitanity, which some saw is more akin to the real message, but i feel kinda sure they also are more welcoming. In fact, if Jesus was an essene, he prob did follow many religions. At the very least, he wasn't Christian, hehe.

A religion also can't be held accountable for things done in it's name. If we go that way, we would need to be consistent and say americans are scum for what they done to native americans, or Irish are scum cause of IRA, or Germans' are scum cause of the two world wars. If we don't hold these nations accountable, and they're similar sociological models, then surely we gotta not hold religion accountable? If we respond to what looks like intolerance in religion, with intolerance & judgement to it, no prizes for guessing what we're are equally perpetuating.

We know the spiritual laws to do with this. It's not important what way folks in religion are to us. It's only important how we are to them. With our love, understanding, tolerance & patience, others that don't already - might experience God. In their own way, .

Take care
Wayne

I understand and appreciate everything you've said there wayne....... you say in jest at the very least jesus wasn't a christian, thats absolutely accurate...just as buddha wasn't a ' buddhist', he was a teacher of the darmha..... in point of fact I don't see 'Buddhism' ( a modern term) as a religion I see it more as a spiritual philosophy for life and for discovering oneself.....

I don't see many native American traditions as religion...again I see their traditions and practices as a spiritual philosophy for life and discovering the divine within and without.....same with old african traditions and practices....maori, aboriginal....etc.... I don;t see many of their traditions as coming under the umberella of ' man made religion',,,,others may disagree but this is my point of view.....

......also to Jim,to comment a little on masculine and feminine energies..........I have perceived various energies and some I would say lean towards masculine or feminie and some seem genderless.........I'm talking about a variety of things here, spiritual presences.....stones, crystals, mountains, rivers....large expanses of waters.... and as for various gods and godesses, it is my understanding that in various traditions, 'gods' or 'godesses' have presided over certain facets of our human personality.....afterall we are living in a world of duality and within each of us resides the masculine and feminie........the objective of attaining 'oneness ' is to unite these qaulities within ourselves and transcend our dualties.............and unite with the divine within which is beyond duality..... ok I'm just writing really quickly here, pushed for time.I'll come back when time allows and try and be more articulate...the operative word being TRY!! ahahah

Here's something that might be worth checking out, ....

www.beyondourdifferences.com

Shakti ~ Rising wrote:

secondly I like to say to Bridget millions of people don't choose their religion, a particular religion can be enforced upon them before they are even old enough to say poopoo.... then all the fundamentalist views of the parents are enforced upon the child being raised....and so a very unhealthy cycle continues.....

It seems like we've had this conversation
before somewhere else I never got
to choose my religion/nationality I was born
into them. I'm not sure I would use the term
"unhealthy cycle" for my religion. There were
parts of the religious organization that was
comforting. As a child you are directed by your
parents/guardians who usually are looking out
for your best interest. As an adult you can
choose your own path, or stay with the one your
parents bestowed on you.