i like the public festivities that
add glitter to the cold winters here
in the northern hemisphere. The months
that lead up to Christmas sure takes a
sharp turn when the commerical Christmas
is over. The bright lights disappear and
tackling the gloom of winter sets in,until
Valentines day




When we take religion out of Christmas and
add spirituality you do not need all the
glitter to enhance the glow of Peace and
goodwill to wo/mankind

Spiritualitymas, hehe. There's no spirituality in Christianity? What groups of folks do, has little bearing on the large system. We don't suggest white folks are scum cause of the KKK. Or, German's are hateful cause of the Nazi's.

Whilst it's true that humans don't & shouldn't need religious festivals to be kind to all others, what's also true is that right now, if the world stopped all religious festivals, that the good will at those specific times would most likely diminish. It's far better to have a feeling of good will for a small number of days, than none at all, .

The points also made, and it's a fair point, that such religious festivals are 'false', and we don't need the glitter. Although, not all folks are in a mindset where they don't need such things. If giving presents, and all th ehype generates kindness, good nature, and for some (albeit percentage) of folks to think about something greater than themselves, probably the reason for such festivals is ultimately served, .

With respect
Wayne

chi_solas wrote: i like the public festivities that
add glitter to the cold winters here
in the northern hemisphere. The months
that lead up to Christmas sure takes a
sharp turn when the commerical Christmas
is over. The bright lights disappear and
tackling the gloom of winter sets in,until
Valentines day




When we take religion out of Christmas and
add spirituality you do not need all the
glitter to enhance the glow of Peace and
goodwill to wo/mankind

Aye ...thing is christmas is so commercialised these days which causes a whole lot of grief for families not financially stable.....then add to that the pressure of having to have a 'great time'......all the added shite that comes along with christmas can be extremely stressful and depressing for many people.... infact I' not sure if suicide rates go up around this time of year ..don't quote me though.....

and BAAAA HUMBUG!!! ahahah.......all that said I actually do enjoy christmas,but enough is enough now I NEED to get my kids back to school for the sake of my sanity, we have had so much snow here the schools have been closed, if it doesn't snow again tonight they kids go back tomorrow....YEEHOOOOOOOOO, I can not wait!!

Milarepa wrote:Spiritualitymas, hehe. There's no spirituality in Christianity? What groups of folks do, has little bearing on the large system. We don't suggest white folks are scum cause of the KKK. Or, German's are hateful cause of the Nazi's.

Whilst it's true that humans don't & shouldn't need religious festivals to be kind to all others, what's also true is that right now, if the world stopped all religious festivals, that the good will at those specific times would most likely diminish. It's far better to have a feeling of good will for a small number of days, than none at all, .

The points also made, and it's a fair point, that such religious festivals are 'false', and we don't need the glitter. Although, not all folks are in a mindset where they don't need such things. If giving presents, and all th ehype generates kindness, good nature, and for some (albeit percentage) of folks to think about something greater than themselves, probably the reason for such festivals is ultimately served, .

With respect
Wayne

I think there is a certain type of detached spirituality in christianity( and many religions).....they see god as being an external force completely seperate from themselves and they see themslevs as having been saved.... from what exactly??...then there is the whole sin thing, then there is the whole hell thing, then there is the whole guilt thing,
then there is the whole only christians have the monoply on god thing and then there is the whole god is a male thing....does that mean he has a willy?.....

and I disagree with what you said wayne...if all religious festivals ceased there would be no goodwill at those times...I think true spirituality would take its rightful place at those sacred times..... get rid of the man made religion and inate spirituality will take its rightful place.....

but as you mentioned in an earlier post so many people rely on religion..they use it as a crutch because they have been conditioned to become spiritual cripples without it....

Shakti ~ Rising wrote:
I think there is a certain type of detached spirituality in christianity( and many religions).....they see god as being an external force completely seperate from themselves and they see themslevs as having been saved.... from what exactly??...then there is the whole sin thing, then there is the whole hell thing, then there is the whole guilt thing,
then there is the whole only christians have the monoply on god thing and then there is the whole god is a male thing....does that mean he has a willy?.....

There's a few points with this, , although you're points are quite true. The main one being, any other groups take on God, is ultimately neither right or wrong, when we compare it to 'our understanding'. Though of course, us individual humans have little else of reliability to compare anything to, except 'our' own understandings.

I'm loathe to concentrate on any one religion, particularly Christianity. I know us in the west are more familiar with it, so naturally we can speak of it more, though general comments apply to all human sociological groups. Even so, we gotta realise that from the Council of constantinople, the Church has allowed politics & capitalism to integrate into Christianity, so damn much most folks don't even realise it. Granted Constantine was required to do this so the Roman Empire would accept Christianity. This has made the Church leaders from AD300 approx cause immense harm to the message of Jesus, imo. This is more to do with the weakness & greed of humanity, than to do with the real message/purpose of Christianity. They don't seem seperate issues, but they are, .

Ultimaetely, i feel that the vehicle of any spirtuality is unimportant. Especially if it's one i don't understand (and i've been conditioned not to like Christianity either), and i'm not saying this about you Sharon, i'm thinking out loud bout myself, i felt it more usefull to see past my own (in many ways valid) disdain at Christianity, and try to see if there's a deeper message that mankinds stupidity is actually making my blind to.

Shakti ~ Rising wrote:
and I disagree with what you said wayne...if all religious festivals ceased there would be no goodwill at those times...I think true spirituality would take its rightful place at those sacred times..... get rid of the man made religion and inate spirituality will take its rightful place.....

I appreciate your view. The fact is 'true spirituality' (Jeeepers, i'm getting visons of 'Divine nazism', hehe) doesn't take it's place the rest of the year. so it looks like without christmas, there'd be no goodwill, of the scale we usually see.

Shakti ~ Rising wrote:
but as you mentioned in an earlier post so many people rely on religion..they use it as a crutch because they have been conditioned to become spiritual cripples without it....

I'm not sure if you're saying this exactly, so forgive me if i'm wrong, . Many Christians will feel divinity in their lives. It might not be our cup of tea, but then again, i'm not gonna become a Hindu tonight either. Some folks feel cool having no spiritually set framework, some prefer it. We can't make a judgement on others spiritual paths. If any one path gives folks a divine experience, then we should applaud that.

Kinda exmaple, in Buddhism, they don't give too hoots who becomes Buddhist, christian, etc. If 10 folks wanna become christian, 10 muslim, 10 jew, Buddhist applaud that, and would encourage it. Cause we may not be interested in any of those paths ourselves, but there's many routes to Wal Mart or Asda, .

Take care
Wayne

I've researched various religious traditions as part of my own personal journey into discovering more about healing....... and as such ultimately the same string runs through all teachings....but, and this is the big but.....politics, manipulation and control of the masses is the hidden agenda behind all man made religions... which leads to seperatness and religious elitism......

religion causes seperation, spirituality creates unity.......if more religious fundamentalists studied other traditions they would recognise a common thread running through them all, anyone with eyes to see can understand that, it's not rocket science.... but so much spiritual truth and knowledge has been so heavily encased in dogma that people who follow these paths really can't see the wood for the trees.....

I respect the true spiritual messages that hide within all faiths....but I do not have an ounce of respect for man made religions....

you're Irish and you have seen the appalling division that can be created with different branches of the same faith!!!??!!!....... people are insane!

Shakti ~ Rising wrote:I've researched various religious traditions as part of my own personal journey into discovering more about healing....... and as such ultimately the same string runs through all teachings....but, and this is the big but.....politics, manipulation and control of the masses is the hidden agenda behind all man made religions... which leads to seperatness and religious elitism......

religion causes seperation, spirituality creates unity.......if more religious fundamentalists studied other traditions they would recognise a common thread running through them all, anyone with eyes to see can understand that, it's not rocket science.... but so much spiritual truth and knowledge has been so heavily encased in dogma that people who follow these paths really can't see the wood for the trees.....

I respect the true spiritual messages that hide within all faiths....but I do not have an ounce of respect for man made religions....

you're Irish and you have seen the appalling division that can be created with different branches of the same faith!!!??!!!....... people are insane!

Organized religions do have hidden agenda's.

Shakti ~ Rising wrote:

you're Irish and you have seen the appalling division that can be created with different branches of the same faith!!!??!!!....... people are insane!

That's what i'm saying - people are insane. It's not religion that's made folks kill in ireland, they may say it is, but christianity didn't tell them to kill. It was about Nationality/Politics. They told themselves to kill, and then they used something other than themselves to give reason to it. In another time & place it would have been race for instance. If Christianity never existed, this doesn't mean the British wouldn't have invaded Ireland, and set up government. Same outcome.

It's really important we look at things from a position of non-judgment, . In Ireland, the police came to me 3 times, to give me official death threats from some terrorist factions. Largely cause i was with a Catholic woman (my partner). I also had up close & personal expereinces with these folks, one incident in particular as serious as it can get (though it's not something to share on a Reiki forum really). So for sure, i've expereienced terrbile things in the name of religion. It wasn't the catholic church doing this though. It was folks with bigotry & Political/nationialistic insanity turned towards a fellow human. This hasn't stopped me not looking for the goodness in religion. In fact, my two kids are being brought up catholic, my daughter having her first communion in spring. If something can make someone aware of God, that's what's important. If my two kids grew up to kill in the name of religion, it doesn't mean christianity is bad, it means my two kids are.

It's useful to see why this kinda thing happens. Through history, social inequality, greed, and charismatic people/ideals can give folks some sense of purpose, in an otherwise mundane feeling of existence. It's a most clever ploy throughout the world to usereligion as a reason to cause harm to others. There's a psychological ploy to this, which is typical of humanity. Some humans will harness that ideal which is most closest & precious to our hearts. They'll then create doubt & fears in our minds, and create an atmosphere in which we feel our way of life in threatened. Then, our basic survival instinct comes out. It can happen under the banner of any sociological group.

This doesn't mean we should get rid of all of societies groups (although certain powers that be are trying to). when we kill or harm another, it's cause we feel we've an excuse to. In our warped mind we think 'ok, i have to do this for this or that reason'. It's humanity that does this, and we pick any reason we can, even sometimes - no reason.

Take care
Wayne

It was my understanding that N.I.
was the key to the Atlantic Ocean.
US had its Armed forces stationed
there.Its a subject that does have
an embedded political system that
allowed the issue of religion to
become a vocal point when Catholics
were treated like 2nd class citizens
and religion did play a role so the
politicans could keep control until
the lid blew off in the 60's.

On another forum not "Reiki" here's a
response to one of my postings around
the issue of conflicts that lead to war.

Note that cease fire has happened during
Christmas as soldiers on opposing sides
acknowledge Peace and goodwill towards
each other.

Well, I seriously doubt that war is simply because people can't get along. Often, as in the case of Iraq invading Kuwait, it was an attempt to gain something that the other country possessed (oil). It's often for power, land, etc.

In my own religion, one of our major deities is a god of war:

QUOTE
3. Now let it be first understood that I am a god of War and of Vengeance. I shall deal hardly with them.

4. Choose ye an island!

5. Fortify it!

6. Dung it about with enginery of war!

7. I will give you a war-engine.

8. With it ye shall smite the peoples; and none shall stand before you.

9. Lurk! Withdraw! Upon them! this is the Law of the Battle of Conquest: thus shall my worship be about my secret house.

10. Get the stele of revealing itself; set it in thy secret temple -- and that temple is already aright disposed -- & it shall be your Kiblah for ever. It shall not fade, but miraculous colour shall come back to it day after day. Close it in locked glass for a proof to the world.

11. This shall be your only proof. I forbid argument. Conquer! That is enough. I will make easy to you the abstruction from the ill-ordered house in the Victorious City. Thou shalt thyself convey it with worship, o prophet, though thou likest it not. Thou shalt have danger & trouble. Ra-Hoor-Khu is with thee. Worship me with fire & blood; worship me with swords & with spears. Let the woman be girt with a sword before me: let blood flow to my name. Trample down the Heathen; be upon them, o warrior, I will give you of their flesh to eat!

chi_solas wrote:IIts a subject that does have
an embedded political system that
allowed the issue of religion to
become a vocal point when Catholics
were treated like 2nd class citizens
and religion did play a role so the
politicans could keep control until
the lid blew off in the 60's.

If we look at the roots of the issue, we can see more clearly what's going on.

The normans invaded Ireland in 1169, and Ireland was ruled by 'Britain' for most of the middle ages. this mean that Ireland was ruled by Britain up to 400 years before Protestants existed. Land was confiscated and gave to scottish farmers, and this is what's caused the problem.

Elizabeth 1 was interested in Ireland as it was a backdoor to spain, whom she was at war with. 14th century.

Another problem came with Oliver Cromwell. After the English civil war he was short of money. so took most of Ireland to pay for the debt. Again, this wasn't over religion.

We can see a pattern forming, that England has saw Ireland from a strategic viewpoint. not from a religious one.

As various countries had various christian dominations, it was inevitiable that one side would repeatedly come up against the other. Over time, like i've suggested, it suited folks to coerce another reason for the whole debacle. Before long, it was also about Protestant & Catholic. when really, this whole thing had always been about strategic placement, land & debt.

Fastforward to recent times. British government was very willing to shower protestants with infinite more resources than catholics in n.ireland. This created a certain hatred & resentment among catholics, understandably. IMO, Britain was aware of this, and may have calculated it to happen. The reason being, it's the military premise of 'divide & conquer'. If Britain had a population in a part of Ireland that had a pretty easy time, and had another portion of society with huge resentment & growing rebellion, this would of course worry protestants that their way of life is in jeopardy. Protestants would become to realise just how dependant they were on British rule. This would make Protestants in n.ireland staunch supporters of the British government (as it did do). so Britain was more secure in keeping it's strategic interest it had tried to maintain for near 1000 years.

Notwithstanding that killings did degenerate (if that's ever the case) to religious cleansing, it was still a by-product of the bigger picture. Irrespective of the criminal inequality from Protestants, to the terrible murdersthey commited in bars, or indeed catholics blowing up town centres, neither christian denominations ordered folks to do this. So there had to be something else going on, maybe not as initially obvious.

What we should ask ourselves is, why is there so much more peace now? It's not cause Protestants or Catholics have been exterminated, or left the province. and this crucially is very telling. What's dramatically changed things is that there's much more equality. This implies the greviances have actually been socio-political. social inequality, coupled with political impediment. Cause that's the only things that have changed.

A general question to all: The German nation has caused two world wars that killed more people in the world than all other wars put together. If we're suggesting that groups within society (such as religion) are at fault for the terrible things done in it's name, then it that logic follows it must surely apply to all groups. Should we then suggest that the German nation ceases to exist?

Take care
Wayne

Oops looks like we jumped off the
tracks of Significance of X-MAS.......

The word "X-mas" when I was growing up
did not represent the Religious part
of Christmas. X-mas was considered
disrespectful towards the true meaning
of the birth of Jesus/Manuel. X-Mass
represented the commerical side of the
season.

It's interesting that history notes
during Christmas war time, soldiers on
opposing sides acknowledged Peace and
goodwill towards each other. Holding a
cease fire and singing carols.

chi_solas wrote:

It's interesting that history notes
during Christmas war time, soldiers on
opposing sides acknowledged Peace and
goodwill towards each other. Holding a
cease fire and singing carols.

Dunno if you've heard it or not Bridget, a Paul Mcartney song 'Pipes of Peace', is about the true story of two opposing regiments in world war 1 in no mans land. These guys decided to take the ceasefire one step further, and actually met one another in the middle of the front lines. swapped stories, played football together. Very powerful stuff!

That's the one I'm referring to
The power of "Silent Night" 1914

well you both bring up some excellent points!!






... and those bloody english did some awful things in our history!!...

but I still feel man made religion always has had at it's foundations a political agenda.... I have three children, none of whom have been christened, I hope they will grow up to see the common spiritual wisdom within various global traditions and come to their own conclusions about relgion. My eldest son doesn't believe in god at all and I think that is a wonderful thing, he wrote a great poem a few years back about his thoughts on this.

and at those official death threats!!!

Shakti ~ Rising wrote:

but I still feel man made religion always has had at it's foundations a political agenda....

This is a really good point. and difficult for religion to extrapolate itself from now, i feel. Although, it did tibet no harm for instance. Question being, what makes those folks different.

Shakti ~ Rising wrote:
I have three children, none of whom have been christened, I hope they will grow up to see the common spiritual wisdom within various global traditions and come to their own conclusions about relgion. My eldest son doesn't believe in god at all and I think that is a wonderful thing, he wrote a great poem a few years back about his thoughts on this.

This is real good stuff. My own Kids are going to a catholic school. Although i taught them some gnostic stuff,and how to use a mala, (although it's contrary to church doctrine), this lets them make their own mind up as they grow up. So they're pretty aware of something greater than themselves in School & home. what way they express it, if at all, is their concern, hehe. I can definitely appreciate your own approach,

BTW, how's the weather up in your neck of the woods? Freezing here, although it's seemed mild compared to other places. We got the central heating on and 4 heaters we got outta homebase, hehe!

Take care
Wayne