Milarepa wrote:

Lambs-Wool wrote:

However, kotodomas cannot be associated with symbols and so far i haven't felt them to be a substitute to symbols or vice versa...

kotodama is the spiritual experience from using the vocalized & written form of certain words.

re: association of symbols. DKM & HSZSN are a collecion of words, which, when used in certain ways ( i.e. vocalized & written), bring about a spiritual experience.

warmest wishes
wayne

hi Wayne

DKM and HSZSN may be a little more than 'collection of words' they are 'phrases' independent of the words composing the collection. for exmaple, chokurei is a phrase independent of the cho-ku-rei individually in the same way reiki is different from te individual meanings of rei-ki...

i have in mind that kotodoma are syllables of sound, and when they are mixed their combined effect produces something like a raga, a jumon! a jumon is a phrase, while kotodama are invidiual sounds...

this is my present understanding about jumon and kotodama... please tell what is the precise difference between the two, since this difference is always very confusing to many people


take care

salman

Lambs-Wool wrote:

Milarepa wrote:

Lambs-Wool wrote:

However, kotodomas cannot be associated with symbols and so far i haven't felt them to be a substitute to symbols or vice versa...

kotodama is the spiritual experience from using the vocalized & written form of certain words.

re: association of symbols. DKM & HSZSN are a collecion of words, which, when used in certain ways ( i.e. vocalized & written), bring about a spiritual experience.

warmest wishes
wayne

hi Wayne

DKM and HSZSN may be a little more than 'collection of words' they are 'phrases' independent of the words composing the collection. for exmaple, chokurei is a phrase independent of the cho-ku-rei individually in the same way reiki is different from te individual meanings of rei-ki...

i have in mind that kotodoma are syllables of sound, and when they are mixed their combined effect produces something like a raga, a jumon! a jumon is a phrase, while kotodama are invidiual sounds...

this is my present understanding about jumon and kotodama... please tell what is the precise difference between the two, since this difference is always very confusing to many people


take care

salman

Hi Salman

That is very insightful of you!

I think you have answered your own question there.

From my point of view, the difference between kotodama and jumon is that, as you said, kotodama are primal sounds, meaningless in themselves but when strung together by a master (or knowledgable practitioner) they can achieve certain effects in the practitioner and their environment. Jumon are set phrases (sometimes obscure and unintelligible) that are uttered with intent to achieve a specific outcome - like a magic spell (which is really what jumon means).

Both kotodama and jumon have been used for centuries in Japan and are obviously not specific to Reiki. While we have examples of both in the system of Reiki, the kotodama practices usually taught as original Usui practices are certainly very different from more traditional Shinto/Esoteric Buddhist kotodama practice. You only have to read what Morihei Ueshiba, founder of Aikdo has to say about kotodama to understand that.

Ueshiba was originally a follower of Oomoto Kyo, a mix of Christian-like beliefs and Ancient Shinto, which also used Kotodama practice. Mikoto Masahilo Nakazono, who is considered an expert on Kotodama was a student of Ueshiba.

Ueshiba was, as we know, a contemporary of Mikao Usui and they could well have met and had similar influences. They both used waka to illustrate moral and spiritual lessons for their students, and they were both well-read and studies many things, so Usui would almost certainly been aware of and probably experimented with kotodama. However, if what we hear from these "sources" who like to stay out of the limelight, is true then Usui seems to have adapted the traditional kotodama practice to fit with what he was teaching.

I was fortunate enough to attend a workshop with Frans Steine in Glasgow back in 2005, I think, where we chanted the kotodama of the symbol mantras (for want of a better way to phrase it!) for over 30 minutes (for each symbol) and then rested in silence for 5-10 minutes and I can say that the experience was quite amazing and really profound. However, if kotodama chanting did not produce amazing experiences, I am sure we would not have heard of it in modern times.

Kotodama practice as such (i.e. chanting kotodama sounds) does not appear to have been passed on to later students such as Hayashi Sensei, although an awareness of the power and value of kotodama (and jumon) certainly was (e.g. in the Gokai). I am sure that certain words and waka were deliberately chosen for that reason.

Back to your question, Salman:

Another of the differences between kotodama practice and jumon is that kotodama are usually chanted over and over (like a mantra) but a jumon is only said a very few times (and I can't be any more specific than that )

So, would you say that within Usui Reiki Ryōhō there are kotodama and no jumon?

Lambs-Wool wrote:

DKM and HSZSN may be a little more than 'collection of words' they are 'phrases' independent of the words composing the collection. for exmaple, chokurei is a phrase independent of the cho-ku-rei individually in the same way reiki is different from te individual meanings of rei-ki...

not sure what you mean here buddy? I know they're more than a collection of words (didn't a certain someone get intiated by another using them!), however, i thought my analogy was self evident...

Lambs-Wool wrote:
i have in mind that kotodoma are syllables of sound, and when they are mixed their combined effect produces something like a raga, a jumon! a jumon is a phrase, while kotodama are invidiual sounds...

individual sounds yes. but the use in Reiki, these individual sounds are broght together. per my examples of DKm & HSZSN.

DKM = ai ku yo

HSZSN = ho a ze ho ne

we can see that there's a collection of vocal sounds for each symbol. this is wrongly called kotodama. It's the spiritual effect from using the above, that would be kotodama. i'd already pointed this out earlier, im pm also, .

Colin wrote:
kotodama are primal sounds..

didn't someone mention somthing bout this earlier, lol!

11. Many Reiki practitioners incorrectly use the term 'kotodama' to indicate either the jumon (mantras) associated with the Reiki Symbols, or alternatively, to indicate certain simplified forms of these jumon. However, the term 'kotodama' does not refer to specific words or vocalised sounds, but rather, to the 'spiritual effect' resulting from particular application of words - in both their verbalised and written forms.

source: http://www.aetw.org/reiki_gokai_original.html

Colin wrote:
but a jumon is only said a very few times

not entierely in my experience. it can depend on the way it's being taught. I've been learning Kuji-in a couple of years now, and we recite the 9 sacred kuji-in, Rin-Pyo-To-Sha-Kai-Jin-Retsu-Zai-Zen, many times individually, and also collectively, particularly at the start of our training.

warmest wishes
Wayne

Thank You Colin! Very informative.

Kotodama practice as such (i.e. chanting kotodama sounds) does not appear to have been passed on to later students such as Hayashi Sensei,

I find this very interesting! Are there any reasons why this might be the case? Was Dr. Hayashi not good enough? Or trustworthy? Considering his profile it is hard to imagine that he didn't hear for Ueshiba and his teaching. It might come as naive but I am wondering if this could be of his choosing? If as some suggesting he had different approach to Reiki than Dr. Usui could this be also the case.

Since we speak about Ueshiba there was an article posted in Aikido Journal featuring interview with Koichi Tochei who said:

Tall Tales and Reality: What I Really Learned from Master Morihei
What was the most important thing you learned from Morihei Ueshiba?
The way people most talk about ki these days tends toward the occultish, but I will say that I have never done anything even remotely involving the occult. Much of what Ueshiba Sensei talked about, on the other hand, did sound like the occult.
In any case, I began studying aikido because I saw that Ueshiba Sensei had truly mastered the art of relaxing. It was because he was relaxed, in fact, that he could generate so much power. I became his student with the intention of learning that from him. To be honest, I never really listened to most of the other things he said.
Stories about Ueshiba Sensei moving instantaneously or pulling pine trees from the ground and swinging them around are all just tall tales. I’ve always urged aikido people to avoid writing things like that. Unfortunately many people don’t seem to listen. Instead, they just decrease the size of the tree in the story from some massive thing to one only about ten centimeters in diameter. In reality, it’s pretty difficult to pull even a single burdock root out of the ground, so how in the world is someone going to extract a ten centimeter pine tree, especially while standing on its root system? Such things are nothing but exaggerations of the kind often used in old-fashioned storytelling.
The stories have gotten rather incredible since Ueshiba Sensei passed away, and now people are having him moving instantaneously or reappearing suddenly from a kilometer away and other nonsense. I was with Ueshiba Sensei for a long time and can tell you that he possessed no supernatural powers

And

Before the war Sensei taught at the Naval Staff College, where he had Prince Takamatsu (a younger brother of the Showa emperor) as one of his students. On one occasion the prince pointed at Ueshiba Sensei and said, “Try to lift up that old man.” Four strong sailors tried their best to lift him but they couldn’t do it.
Sensei said of that time, “All the many divine spirits of Heaven and Earth entered my body and I became as immovable as a heavy rock.” Everybody took him literally and believed it. I heard him say that kind of thing hundreds of times.
For my part, I have never had divine beings enter my body. I’ve never put much stock in that kind of illogical explanation.
Once when I was with Sensei in Hawaii, there was a demonstration in which two of the strong Hawaiian students were supposed to try to lift me up. They already knew they couldn’t do it, so they didn’t think much of it. But Sensei, who was off to the side watching, kept standing up and saying, “Stop, you can lift Tohei, you can lift him! Stop, make them stop! This demonstration’s no good!”

You see, I had been out drinking until three o’clock in the morning the previous evening, and Sensei knew what condition I had come home in. He said, “Of course the gods aren’t going to enter into a drunken sot like you! If they did they’d all get tipsy!” That’s why he thought they would be able to lift me.
In reality that sort of thing has nothing to do with any gods or spirits. It’s just a matter of having a low center of gravity. I know this and it’s what I teach all my students. It wouldn’t mean anything if only certain special people could do it. Things like that have to be accessible to everyone if they’re to have any meaning.

Here is the link to full article: http://www.aikidojournal.com/article?articleID=93

Milarepa wrote:

Lambs-Wool wrote:

DKM and HSZSN may be a little more than 'collection of words' they are 'phrases' independent of the words composing the collection. for exmaple, chokurei is a phrase independent of the cho-ku-rei individually in the same way reiki is different from te individual meanings of rei-ki...

not sure what you mean here buddy? I know they're more than a collection of words (didn't a certain someone get intiated by another using them!), however, i thought my analogy was self evident...

point now taken Wayne !

Milarepa wrote:

Lambs-Wool wrote:
i have in mind that kotodoma are syllables of sound, and when they are mixed their combined effect produces something like a raga, a jumon! a jumon is a phrase, while kotodama are invidiual sounds...

individual sounds yes. but the use in Reiki, these individual sounds are broght together. per my examples of DKm & HSZSN.

DKM = ai ku yo

HSZSN = ho a ze ho ne

we can see that there's a collection of vocal sounds for each symbol. this is wrongly called kotodama. It's the spiritual effect from using the above, that would be kotodama. i'd already pointed this out earlier, im pm also, .

tbh Wayne, i couldn't pick up on what you said in pm buddy. so i thought we wd continue on this here in the thread. you've said :

we can see that there's a collection of vocal sounds for each symbol. this is wrongly called kotodama. It's the spiritual effect from using the above, that would be kotodama.

i m certainly not knwoledgeable about this stuff (as you already know it )
the vocal sound itself would not be called kotodama unless it is uttered by somebody who 'knows' what he is uttering... but i see that you view kotodama is the 'effect' of uttering the sounds in a specific way, and you dont' see the sounds themselves as kotodama...

if the spiritual effect (or alternatively saying, the net effect of a 'package' of selected sound syllables) is called kotodama, then i m again confused that what else a jumon is please help this confusion buddy.

you also said :

individual sounds yes. but the use in Reiki, these individual sounds are broght together. per my examples of DKm & HSZSN.

DKM = ai ku yo

HSZSN = ho a ze ho ne

now, as you taught me, when we talk about symbols, it is not the individual kanji meanings of constituent parts of symbols that would bring about the results... for example 'dai' is just a word, 'ko' is another, and 'myo, yet another... even if they are spoken as daikomyo, they don't bring any results unless there is an 'initiation' to them.

using this rule, i have to ask that whether uttering 'ai ku yo' will bring about results for somebody who has not been initiated to DKM ?

in shinto and aikido, do somebody needs to be some sort of 'initiated' to a sound, before that he can obtain results from chanting kotodama syllables. now that might be a classified info, and as i have observed from responses of Colin in this thread, and of James in PM some two three months back, everything cannot be relayed publicly when we talk about kotodama and jumon... since i m not a privy of such oaths, i m discussing all things at length... i dont' know where i m breaking the 'rules'

i find an incoming interesting chat session with you on specifically that subject very soon as you get your full working internet i m just counting!

11. Many Reiki practitioners incorrectly use the term 'kotodama' to indicate either the jumon (mantras) associated with the Reiki Symbols, or alternatively, to indicate certain simplified forms of these jumon. However, the term 'kotodama' does not refer to specific words or vocalised sounds, but rather, to the 'spiritual effect' resulting from particular application of words - in both their verbalised and written forms.

source: http://www.aetw.org/reiki_gokai_original.html

this illustrates your point as well as confuses me again (re : difference from jumon)

Milarepa wrote:

Colin wrote:
but a jumon is only said a very few times

not entierely in my experience. it can depend on the way it's being taught. I've been learning Kuji-in a couple of years now, and we recite the 9 sacred kuji-in, Rin-Pyo-To-Sha-Kai-Jin-Retsu-Zai-Zen, many times individually, and also collectively, particularly at the start of our training.

as far as jumon is considered as a spell/mantra, we find that a mantra needs to be offered 'precisely' as instructed in a counted number of times. this is often the case. some mantras can be uttered in countless number of times without fear of losing the desired result, but for others, we must be very certain that we utter a mantra for the 101st time, when it was intended for 100 times only, we fail to get any results at all...

so in a way, both you and Colin are correct in respect of specific items you've spoken about... mantras/spell cannot be generalized as about their structure and chanting sequence....

take care

salman

Colin wrote:

From my point of view, the difference between kotodama and jumon is that, as you said, kotodama are primal sounds, meaningless in themselves but when strung together by a master (or knowledgable practitioner) they can achieve certain effects in the practitioner and their environment. Jumon are set phrases (sometimes obscure and unintelligible) that are uttered with intent to achieve a specific outcome - like a magic spell (which is really what jumon means).

hi Colin thanks for the the nourishing info (as always been its you )

you have that kotodoma is menaingless itself unless certain such sounds are 'joined' by a knowledgeable practitioner... after such knowledgeable joining, the product is something we would call jumon on some other occasion, isn't ? (the same confusion i asked from Wayne in previous post)

i can guess that a single sound (which we are referring as kotodama syllable) can bring about certain results which certainly would be different from the joining of such sounds. whats your take on the effect-producing capability of a kotodama syllable ? yes, or no ?

Colin wrote:
Both kotodama and jumon have been used for centuries in Japan and are obviously not specific to Reiki.
.......................
.......................
.....However, if what we hear from these "sources" who like to stay out of the limelight, is true then Usui seems to have adapted the traditional kotodama practice to fit with what he was teaching.

he adapted HSZSN and DKM too from Japanese usage, but we also know that he 'spiritually programmed' such phrases to do something specific in reiki... applying this on what you above said, did he simply 'adapted' or 'adapted and reprogrammed' kotodama within reiki ?

Colin wrote:
Kotodama practice as such (i.e. chanting kotodama sounds) does not appear to have been passed on to later students such as Hayashi Sensei, although an awareness of the power and value of kotodama (and jumon) certainly was (e.g. in the Gokai).

as Resko very aptly pointed out in reply to you, that what could have been the plausible reasons of not introducing kotodama to Hayashi Sensei... any possiblity that kotodama were first 'add-on' introduced through contemporary practitoners of Hayashi (within or outside Gakkai) who had have worked sufficiently with kotodama earlier, and would have thought to 'increase' reiki potential by blending their experience into what they carried from Usui ?

Colin wrote:
Another of the differences between kotodama practice and jumon is that kotodama are usually chanted over and over (like a mantra) but a jumon is only said a very few times (and I can't be any more specific than that )

both yes and no depending upon the particular case.. (for example : within treatmetns we are advised to draw CKR once, but within initiations, we are instructed to silently chant CKR thrice or to put CKR on palms of student thrice or to tap on hands thrice... )




take care

salman

Frank wrote:So, would you say that within Usui Reiki Ryōhō there are kotodama and no jumon?

No, that is not what I am saying

There are both kotodama and jumon within Usui Reiki Ryoho (and Usui Shiki Ryoho) even though they may not always be mentioned as such but it appears that the chanting of kotodama was not passed on to Hayashi

Milarepa wrote:

Colin wrote:
but a jumon is only said a very few times

not entierely in my experience. it can depend on the way it's being taught. I've been learning Kuji-in a couple of years now, and we recite the 9 sacred kuji-in, Rin-Pyo-To-Sha-Kai-Jin-Retsu-Zai-Zen, many times individually, and also collectively, particularly at the start of our training.

warmest wishes
Wayne

Yes, that is true - perhaps I should really have said "but a jumon is usually only said a specific number of times"

However, as you you, there are very few, if any things which are totally consistent in spiritual practices (and in Japan, in particular!)

Perhaps it is a good idea for a moderator or administrator to split the posts on kotodama (kotodama and jumon confusion) off from this topic, as it is a very interesting topic in itself ?

*Gasshō*
Frank

Frank wrote:Perhaps it is a good idea for a moderator or administrator to split the posts on kotodama (kotodama and jumon confusion) off from this topic, as it is a very interesting topic in itself ?

*Gasshō*
Frank

Frank what's wrong with discussing both
in the same thread. Its helps folks like
myself who are not into the depths of Reiki
history understand that they are both
concepts of the Sacred Power of speech

It's my understanding that Kotodama is a
Japanese belief that mystical powers dwell
in words and names. And Jumon is a magic
spell.

Frank wrote:

chi_solas wrote:Frank what's wrong with discussing both in the same thread.

Of course there is noting -wrong- with two topics in one. I never said it was.
I did say that it might be a better idea to split the kotodama-confusion off from this topic, because it is a very interesting topic in itself. That way both topics ("If symbols are for intent/focus" and "what is the difference between kotodama and jumon") can get full attention.. the attention they deserve, because both subjects are very interesting.

*Gasshō*
Frank

Clearing up confusion is part of
the learning process

I have to leave the forum right now
but will check out the split later.

hey Bridget sometimes retaining a confusion is a better impetus for further learning



Salman

Lambs-Wool wrote:hey Bridget sometimes retaining a confusion is a better impetus for further learning



Salman

I'm still trying to understand
the connection of the symbols
to kotodama and jumon.

As I read a lot of jarjon
around japaneses culture and
words it seems certain words
call on a spirt to make things
happen. So if I focus on a
certain Reiki symbol say one
that invokes emotions/addictions
I chant the word harmony when in
the presence of the person needing
to be healed, then the spirit of
harmony will bestow harmony to
that person.