Here is an interesting article by Frans and Bronwen Steine, which I am sure will generate some discussion

http://www.reiki.net.au/news.asp?id=205

In a nutshell, the article says that during a Reiki attunement/initiation, the teacher is not actually giving or connecting the student to something they don't have already. The teacher simply supports the student and helps them realise their own true nature, through a state of compassion and non-duality.

They also imply that in an attunement, the teacher is not giving or activating the symbols, opening any chakras or attuning the student to universal energy.

i havn't even read it yet bro, i got the email also.

in an initaition, the teacher is giving something. a spiritual empowerment, ability, spiritual permission (if you like). It's a said by some to be a deeper meaning of initiatorial lineage empowerments. In fact, it's said by some to be a trasnfering of consciosness.

Unless the person already has two japanese phrases, and two symbols, empwered in a very specific way within them, then a teacher is (in a sense) passing something on. Semantics heaven, if one says that's giving, i can undertsand that!

Colin wrote:Here is an interesting article by Frans and Bronwen Steine, which I am sure will generate some discussion

http://www.reiki.net.au/news.asp?id=205

In a nutshell, the article says that during a Reiki attunement/initiation, the teacher is not actually giving or connecting the student to something they don't have already. The teacher simply supports the student and helps them realise their own true nature, through a state of compassion and non-duality.

They also imply that in an attunement, the teacher is not giving or activating the symbols, opening any chakras or attuning the student to universal energy.

Hi Colin,

I read the info from the link you offered. A very well written summerisation of ideas. I read it a couple of times... from the ideas put forth, I cannot understand why anyone needs to do anything, if what they say is true.

I always get confused when the word "duality' arises. To me we are naturally dualistic in nature...as in...spiritual/physical...To be aware of our spiritual side does not equal "non duality".

I can`t really find a foot hold in their logic...the words make sense, although, they make no explanation of our true purpose, as the one passing the attunement.

RJ

Colin wrote:Here is an interesting article by Frans and Bronwen Steine, which I am sure will generate some discussion

http://www.reiki.net.au/news.asp?id=205

In a nutshell, the article says that during a Reiki attunement/initiation, the teacher is not actually giving or connecting the student to something they don't have already. The teacher simply supports the student and helps them realise their own true nature, through a state of compassion and non-duality.

They also imply that in an attunement, the teacher is not giving or activating the symbols, opening any chakras or attuning the student to universal energy.

This is something I've pondered myself since my initiation/attunement. I'm inclined to say yes. The teacher creates a comfortable/safe space for the student to become aware of his/her connection to the universal energy. This is based on my own experience of Reiki. Maybe this is why some students or clients are amazed by their Reiki experience and others consider it bunk.

That said, I've little knowledge of Japanese culture, history, or language which I've felt limits my understanding of what Reiki was originally or even how it is understood by modern Japanese. I would really like to hear from those that have that understanding what their take on this article is.

this whole idea completely goes over my head. i've read that you don't 'receive' reiki or 'transmit it' and so on, but to me this is like saying that you 'didnt get magically turned into a smurf' you 'just realized you were one all of a sudden'

awaken you are funny

We are born with Reiki Energy.
When we get attuned to formal
Reiki it awakens the natural
energy that has been dormant.
Most times we ignore our natural
healing like the way our cut finger
or the nick you get when shaving,
heals without medical help.

Hi Folks,

You all bring up good points...yet, I want to know... What is it during the initiation that triggers our awareness? What is it in the process, that makes it so we can bypass decades of spiritual practice, and receive this gift of "knowing" and healing.

Everyone knows that the body has the ability to heal certain things, but we in Reiki take this a step further, or become a bigger believer in this due to....what?

Intention and symbols seem to be where everyone points to, yet the article that Colin has brought to us, questions even these well accepted ideas.

Anyone have an original thought pertaining to this?

RJ

My thought is hardly original, I read it first in Diane Stein's books, but it has been confirmed to me by one of my students who sees stuff in auras. There is something within everyone's aura (Stein calls it a piece of karma) which is removed by the Powers that Be during an attunement.

I fundamentally disagree with the Steine's assessment of what an attunement is and does, because as a natural (ie. since birth) spiritual healer, I was already in tune with the healing power of the universe. What Reiki did was give me a validation of my spiritual heritage, and I'm less afraid of it than I was. However, I prefer to use Reiki because of its built in protection (OK I know not everyone believes that but I do). I can only assume that they weren't natural spiritual healers before they discovered Reiki.

Reikijim wrote:Hi Folks,

You all bring up good points...yet, I want to know... What is it during the initiation that triggers our awareness? What is it in the process, that makes it so we can bypass decades of spiritual practice, and receive this gift of "knowing" and healing.

Everyone knows that the body has the ability to heal certain things, but we in Reiki take this a step further, or become a bigger believer in this due to....what?

Intention and symbols seem to be where everyone points to, yet the article that Colin has brought to us, questions even these well accepted ideas.

Anyone have an original thought pertaining to this?

RJ

R.J. It seems to me that an attunement/initiation was
like a light switch that opened up a suppressed part of
my inner self. A self that was buried under life's baggage...

1 physical baggage
2 emotional baggage
3 thoughts/judgment baggage
4 spiritual baggage

The 21 day cleanse gave me the opportunity to seek a new
way to start on a path of clearing the way to enhance &
grow in knowledge of how to increase the usage of ULFE.

Reikijim wrote:Hi Folks,

You all bring up good points...yet, I want to know... What is it during the initiation that triggers our awareness? What is it in the process, that makes it so we can bypass decades of spiritual practice, and receive this gift of "knowing" and healing.

Everyone knows that the body has the ability to heal certain things, but we in Reiki take this a step further, or become a bigger believer in this due to....what?

Intention and symbols seem to be where everyone points to, yet the article that Colin has brought to us, questions even these well accepted ideas.

Anyone have an original thought pertaining to this?

RJ

Hi Jim

You pose an excellent but very difficult question!

Here are some more...and a possible answer.

So, What is it during the initiation that triggers our awareness?

Could it be 2 little Japanese phrases, with or without accompanying symbols?
Well, some people pronounce those phrases differently or incorrectly (as far as Japanese goes) and some people don't use any symbols or phrases at all, yet the student can still practice Reiki to good effect. Although I know some people say that symbol-less Reiju/Attunement/Initiations are not permanent - I think that sounds rather like Rand-lineage healing attunements or temporary "free-trial" attunements offered at some MBS shows...Once you are aware of the Reiki "ability" you have it for life is what Takata taught.

Could it be the specific places where certain symbols are "placed"?
Well, since there are so many different attunement methods with symbols being placed (or not placed) in various places and all seem to work, I'm not so sure! Though I do realise the symbolism and practicalities of where certain symbols are places in some attunement methods.

Could it actually be just intention after all?
Well, maybe it is intention...plus one or more of the above, or just intention accompanied by the right mind.

The actual method/symbols/phrases/placements used (or not) may in fact serve to create a particular state of mind in the Reiki teacher, through association and the understanding that a particular teacher has received about the particular attunement method they are using.

This, together with intention, allows the teacher to enter a mindstate where they may experience a deep spiritual connection with the student, whereby the awareness of their (the student's) original nature or awareness of Reiki may be induced or "triggered" by a form of energetic resonance, or Reiki effect, similar to that experienced in a client's body during a treatment in person or distant) but different because of the particular intent held by the teacher/practitioner?

I doubt that anyone truly knows the exact trigger or triggers in detail but I offer this as one possibility.

Hi Bro,
Good chat you've started here!

Colin wrote:
Could it be 2 little Japanese phrases, with or without accompanying symbols?
Well, some people pronounce those phrases differently or incorrectly (as far as Japanese goes) and some people don't use any symbols or phrases at all, yet the student can still practice Reiki to good effect.

It's true there are variations, and it's true there's an experience called generically 'Reiki' that folks say happens. The answer to why this occurs in you above quote is to do with the whole experience/concept of initiatory lineage, imo. We're passing on our own knowledge, our own spiritual empowerment/ability that we in turn have received. This spiritual permission is linked, spiritually to Usui sensei. So, of course, we can pass it on, even with variations. This is why systems such as Karuna, SKHM, Tera Mai, etc, can all come about. All these folks were Usui Reiki first. Once they have received the spiritual permission/empowerment, most importantly to pass it on themselves, they've the ability to change things within it.

What's possibly interesting, is that these 'tweaks' are reported to be good, or not so good. When we change the way of interaction, we might change the experience. Sometimes subtle, sometimes not.

Colin wrote:
Although I know some people say that symbol-less Reiju/Attunement/Initiations are not permanent - I think that sounds rather like Rand-lineage healing attunements or temporary "free-trial" attunements offered at some MBS shows...Once you are aware of the Reiki "ability" you have it for life is what Takata taught.

Purely from personal experience with students, they've told me that the Reiki experience has seemed to dissipate after some time, with Reiju. It's commonly reported that Reiju needs to be on an on-going basis.

As Reiki became more widespread in Japan, i can understand why Usui sensei may have wished to create a more permanent Denju initiation. Having to travel to fro, with over 2000 students, just isn't practical probably.

What Takata sensei was obviously speaking of, was the assumption that initiations would be generally the way she was taught, and herself taught, i.e. with symbols, . Denju, not Reiju. Per my above students experiences.

Colin wrote:
The actual method/symbols/phrases/placements used (or not) may in fact serve to create a particular state of mind in the Reiki teacher, through association and the understanding that a particular teacher has received about the particular attunement method they are using.

This, together with intention, allows the teacher to enter a mind state where they may experience a deep spiritual connection with the student, whereby the awareness of their (the student's) original nature or awareness of Reiki may be induced or "triggered" by a form of energetic resonance, or Reiki effect, similar to that experienced in a client's body during a treatment in person or distant) but different because of the particular intent held by the teacher/practitioner?

I doubt that anyone truly knows the exact trigger or triggers in detail but I offer this as one possibility.

There's no doubt, that Reiki teachers can pass on the experience to others. Perhaps a pertinent question could also be..

Why is Reiju reported to not be permanent, whereas Denju is?

No slight on the name you choose for the topic bro, . We gotta remember, Takata sensei learned her initiations from Hayashi sensei, after having the great honour of being his live-in student. The denju initiations Takata sensei taught, are Japanese attunements, .

Hi Jim,

Reikijim wrote:Hi Folks,

You all bring up good points...yet, I want to know... What is it during the initiation that triggers our awareness? What is it in the process, that makes it so we can bypass decades of spiritual practice, and receive this gift of "knowing" and healing.

What it is is that Usui sensei has gave permission for his Kurama Yama mystical experience to be passed on. This permission has been gave right down in lineage to yourself. This is why Usui sensei had to spend many years of hard work to experience it, yet he's so damn special he's let us have in instantly.

As far as the process goes, unless someone is fortunate to be taught esoteric empowerment's, then we all have needed to be initiated into the symbols Usui sensei choose, and empowered. Just what did he empower them with? My opinion is his own experience.

Possible interesting reading at: http://www.aetw.org/reiki_reiju.htm , and the links at the bottom of that article.

About the Steines' article itself:

Also, the Steines', great folks they are, teach from a Buddhist perspective, though I'm not entirely clear which. I know they had incorporated hiroshi & Chris Marsh' stuff into their teachings. So, with Chris being Tendai, Mikkyo, it'd be more the clear difference in objectives between Reiju, and Denju. Denju Reiki initiations having very much similarities with Mikkyo esoteric Buddhism.

The article is alluding that what Takata sensei spoke (taught?) was Reiju. This is inaccurate. It was Denju initiaitons. Paragraph 7.

Paragraph 10. The reason why the words to do with a Denju initiation, and a Reiju are different is because they're meant to have different objectives, different reasons to perform them. It is true, we 'all have the necessary qualities already', however, unless one is extremely lucky, hard working, or willing to put in years of diligent practice, they usually don't experience what we do daily. This is where the instant blessing of Reiki comes in, and is why Denju initiations where created, imo.

I don;t to carry on commenting bout there piece in itself, save for paragraph 17. It's true, Reiki can be said to 'come from within'. We aren't passing on Reiki though, we're passing on spiritual permission, in the form of an empowerment, to experience it instantly. We're needing to do this, as we're actually, in a sense, taking advantage of Usui sensei's hard work, and his expereince. It's all about permission, . Just another opinion, .


Take care
Wayne

Milarepa wrote:
Purely from personal experience with students, they've told me that the Reiki experience has seemed to dissipate after some time, with Reiju. It's commonly reported that Reiju needs to be on an on-going basis.

As Reiki became more widespread in Japan, i can understand why Usui sensei may have wished to create a more permanent Denju initiation. Having to travel to fro, with over 2000 students, just isn't practical probably.

What Takata sensei was obviously speaking of, was the assumption that initiations would be generally the way she was taught, and herself taught, i.e. with symbols, . Denju, not Reiju. Per my above students experiences.

You make some good points here, Wayne but I think there may be some confusion between what the terms Reiju and Denju actually mean.

Although I am certainly no expert in Japanese, it is my understanding that:
Reiju = Giving or Receiving (ju) of Spirit (Rei)
Denju = Giving or receiving (ju) of teachings (Den as in Sho-den, Oku-den etc.)

Some Reiki teachers have taken to using Reiju only for the symbol-less ritual described by Hiroshi Doi and Chris Marsh, and using Denju to describe the use of symbols in the initiation or attunement ritual.

Whilst I am aware that the Reiju(s) shared by Hiroshi Doi and Chris Marsh may (or may not) be of dubious origin, it is widely believed that Usui sensei originally used a symbol-less form of Reiju, as did the Usui Reiki Ryoho Gakkai. As you said, these symbol-less Reiju may well need to be repeated regularly to prevent the Reiki effect from dissipating and would have been done at the regular meetings.

However, it is also the case that sometimes even students who have received the attunements with symbols experience a lessening (or even disappearance) of the sensation of Reiki after a little while but this is usually in cases where the student is not practicing regularly.



In Japan, the term Reiju is used more generically to refer to both the symbol-less ritual, which needs repeating and also the ritual which does include symbols (as taught by Chujiro Hayashi and Mrs Takata) and does not require regular repetition. With symbols and without symbols, the ritual has the same purpose: to allow the student to become aware of their true nature and the Reiki effect - but the latter possibly requires more repetitions to become permanent.

The Steines also use the term Reiju in this way (i.e. as what we call an attunement or initiation) when they talk of Reiju as being one of the Five Elements of any Reiki style: Gokai/Five Precepts, Techniques, Hand healing, Symbols/Mantras, and Reiju.

It is the same in Jikiden Reiki and Komyo Reiki. The Reiju taught there make use of symbols (in Komyo Reiki we were also taught a symbol-less Reiju for use at Reiki Shares - i.e. for regular use - as well as the Reiju with symbols, which is permanent).

The term Denju is more commonly used to describe the receiving of an actual body of teachings, for example the Kokai Denju of Usui (Presentation of Usui's teachings or notes, usually referring to the 'Explanation (setsumei) of making the teachings available to the public' and the Q & A section of the Hikkei). A much older example of the use if Denju is the Shinto Denju, interestingly written by a Confucian scholar called Ranzan Hayashi ( ), and compiled between 1644-48, which contains secret teachings of various Shinto groups.

Milarepa wrote:
There's no doubt, that Reiki teachers can pass on the experience to others. Perhaps a pertinent question could also be..

Why is Reiju reported to not be permanent, whereas Denju is?

In light of the above, I think this question may better be phrased
"Why is symbol-less Reiju reported to be not permanent, whereas Reiju, using symbols is?"

And I think, if the symbol-less Reiju truly is not permanent, then the answer is (or would appear to be) that it is the use symbols which confers permanence.

I also think that the inclusion of the symbols in the Reiju may well have been to avoid the need for students to have to continually receive Reiju, which would have involved much travelling for the early Reiki teachers, as the number of students grew. Whether it was Usui or Hayashi who first did this is debatable although both certainly travelled around teaching Reiki and it would make sense for them to have used a more permanent Reiju.

Milarepa wrote:
No slight on the name you choose for the topic bro, . We gotta remember, Takata sensei learned her initiations from Hayashi sensei, after having the great honour of being his live-in student. The denju initiations Takata sensei taught, are Japanese attunements, .

No worries, the title of the topic is merely the title of the article we were orginally discussing!

Colin wrote:

You make some good points here, Wayne but I think there may be some confusion between what the terms Reiju and Denju actually mean.

Hi Colin,
I understand what you're saying, . IMO, in Reiki, the initiation using the symbols, is Denju. with the explanations you've also ealaborated on. The reason i've this opinion (and it's purely my own opinion), is cause the actual teachings of Reiki are within the symbols. Spiritually, as in what we expereince, but also, acadmeically, which we can study, and possibly change our perception, which may deepen the expereince called Reiki.

Colin wrote:

Milarepa wrote:
There's no doubt, that Reiki teachers can pass on the experience to others. Perhaps a pertinent question could also be..

Why is Reiju reported to not be permanent, whereas Denju is?

In light of the above, I think this question may better be phrased
"Why is symbol-less Reiju reported to be not permanent, whereas Reiju, using symbols is?"

And I think, if the symbol-less Reiju truly is not permanent, then the answer is (or would appear to be) that it is the use symbols which confers permanence.

I've recieved, and taught, Reiju in which we don't actually draw the symbols. We 'intend' them. This version can be traced to hiroshi & chris. The student did day she felt less sensation after a time. It was a few weeks at most. After one Reiju.

Playing devils advocate with myself, perhaps my underlying beleifs about temporary Reiju played a part in the leve of intention, i dunno. I don't place much be all, end all stuff on intention anyhow, hehe.

Colin wrote:
I also think that the inclusion of the symbols in the Reiju may well have been to avoid the need for students to have to continually receive Reiju, which would have involved much travelling for the early Reiki teachers, as the number of students grew. Whether it was Usui or Hayashi who first did this is debatable although both certainly travelled around teaching Reiki and it would make sense for them to have used a more permanent Reiju.

Yeah. Can we imagine what it'd be like for us even now? with all ou rcommunication systems, etc. It'd still be a nightmare!

Colin wrote:

Milarepa wrote:
No slight on the name you choose for the topic bro, . We gotta remember, Takata sensei learned her initiations from Hayashi sensei, after having the great honour of being his live-in student. The denju initiations Takata sensei taught, are Japanese attunements, .

No worries, the title of the topic is merely the title of the article we were orginally discussing!

thanks Colin, . I wasn't disagreeing with anything you said, but am really enjoying this topic, and reading everyones viewpoint! Many thanks for it!

Take care
Wayne

Colin wrote:

Reikijim wrote:Hi Folks,

You all bring up good points...yet, I want to know... What is it during the initiation that triggers our awareness? What is it in the process, that makes it so we can bypass decades of spiritual practice, and receive this gift of "knowing" and healing.

Everyone knows that the body has the ability to heal certain things, but we in Reiki take this a step further, or become a bigger believer in this due to....what?

Intention and symbols seem to be where everyone points to, yet the article that Colin has brought to us, questions even these well accepted ideas.

Anyone have an original thought pertaining to this?

RJ

Hi Jim

You pose an excellent but very difficult question!

Here are some more...and a possible answer.

So, What is it during the initiation that triggers our awareness?

Could it be 2 little Japanese phrases, with or without accompanying symbols?
Well, some people pronounce those phrases differently or incorrectly (as far as Japanese goes) and some people don't use any symbols or phrases at all, yet the student can still practice Reiki to good effect. Although I know some people say that symbol-less Reiju/Attunement/Initiations are not permanent - I think that sounds rather like Rand-lineage healing attunements or temporary "free-trial" attunements offered at some MBS shows...Once you are aware of the Reiki "ability" you have it for life is what Takata taught.

Yes, for sure, a combination of symbols and intent from someone who has received a denju initiation. I have talked with those who say they pass full, long lasting attunements without symbols, yet these individuals have been attuned to symbols themselves...
I`ve been on the receiving end of a Rand style healing attunement, and liked it very much, although i wonder about placing symbols in someone without the intention of permanence being present. With that being said, and the fact that Reiju is considered to be temporary by some, it makes me ponder the importance of intent and the exact locations of symbol placement. I have much respect for Takata-sensi, as I should, yet i also believe that there is more to be discovered in Reiki than what Takata-sensi practiced.

Colin wrote:
Could it be the specific places where certain symbols are "placed"?
Well, since there are so many different attunement methods with symbols being placed (or not placed) in various places and all seem to work, I'm not so sure! Though I do realise the symbolism and practicalities of where certain symbols are places in some attunement methods.

Could it actually be just intention after all?
Well, maybe it is intention...plus one or more of the above, or just intention accompanied by the right mind.

Well Colin, I think some place a little too much emphasis in regard to the power of intention. Any change in state, in the Universe as i know it, usually requires action, along with thought. Intention and "inspired action"...seem to go hand in hand. Although, it`s still arguable that Usui may have not had an established denju procedure. As many of us have surmized, repeated "reju" from this man coupled with daily practices, over time may have made it possible to realize the connection to Reiki indefinitly. That`s Usui...then there is the rest of us...

Colin wrote:
The actual method/symbols/phrases/placements used (or not) may in fact serve to create a particular state of mind in the Reiki teacher, through association and the understanding that a particular teacher has received about the particular attunement method they are using.

This, together with intention, allows the teacher to enter a mindstate where they may experience a deep spiritual connection with the student, whereby the awareness of their (the student's) original nature or awareness of Reiki may be induced or "triggered" by a form of energetic resonance, or Reiki effect, similar to that experienced in a client's body during a treatment in person or distant) but different because of the particular intent held by the teacher/practitioner?

I doubt that anyone truly knows the exact trigger or triggers in detail but I offer this as one possibility.

What you have said makes as much sense as any theory I have heard else where. Thanks for sharing your thoughts Colin.

RJ

The discussion of intent is interesting. I don't know how it works in reiki attunements, but I'd like to offer a description of a part of a qigong exercise to illustrate different levels of intent.

Qigong practitioners talk about intent. But not all of 'em have the same level of intent, even when doing the same movement. E.g., one may have been taught to bring his hand up, palm facing down, in front of his mouth. Another may have been taught more specifically, to have the hegu point (large intestine 4) of that hand facing the renzhong point (governing vessel 26) of the upper lip. Still another may have been taught still more specifically, to align the hegu and renzhong points and then establish a connection between them so that energy from the hegu point stimulates the renzhong point. In this example, results vary with the level of the practitioner's intent.

But in reiki attunements, whose intent is significant to the outcome? (The teacher's? The student's? Usui's? The entire lineage? Other?)

Bruce