when someone becomes a Reiki Master, they've been gave spiritual permission to pass on the experience of Reiki. As they've been gave permission, they have a mandate (should they wish) to modify things in the initiation. Whether they should is another matter.

The four Usui sysmbols are very important, not just for treatments.

hmmmm..... I dislike the idea of 'spiritual permission' if permission was only granted to those who were best able to provide initiations to others, then where ever that 'permission' came from , their radar was a bit off, cos there are quite a few folk out there who in my view should not be teaching!

this is the whole point of why not anyone should be taught Reiki. the system(s) need to mantain their integrity in a way, in order not to lose important teachings.

spiritual persmission has came from usui, it's why lineage is important. ultimately, if a teacher teaches someone master level, that level is all about teaching others. so, the initiating teacher is showing the processes, empowering the ability. These actions are of course giving the student the permission to pass this on - it's what happens in a master level. since the Reiki experpience is spiritual, it's a spiritual permission.

the standards surely have slipped greatly, so much that people reading this don't have a clue what i'm taking about.

one good thing with it costing so much for takatas training, is it could take a while to come up with the amount. this naturally brings the master training in stages, creating an apprenticeship. plus, it shows someones devotion to the path. after all, takata sold her house in order to go to japan. an exceptional woman, who was rewarded with very in-depth training with one of usui students. course, swings & roundabouts, nowadays half the folks expect Reiki training for free, and cant be bothered to try to look deeper.

hmmm I understand and appreciate what your saying there Wayne, but I don't agree with some things.

For a starter just because in takatas day the Reiki training was so expensive, does not equate to only those being really interested in a profound spiritrual path, receiving the training....many rich folk who took a 'fancy' to spiritual affairs could acquire alsorts of training if they had the right amount of £££££$$$$$$$ to do so. Lots of people over the centuries have wanted to 'look deeper' and discover more, but their standing in life has prevented them from doing so.....so the whole money being paid equating to genuine interest, and 'deserved entitlement' is a load of b*llocks to me..... and quite frankly in my view counter productive at the deepest level!

twasn't so long ago that only that only rich males were entitled to an education!!!...to me it's the exact same warped principle at work!

and I'm still not undertsanding your idea of 'spiritual permission' if each and every one of us are spiritual beings....then whos 'permission' but our own, need we seek to pursue a specific path?

Pachamama wrote:

For a starter just because in takatas day the Reiki training was so expensive, does not equate to only those being really interested in a profound spiritrual path, receiving the training....

ya think. ok. Takatas training today. Her proper training. $10,000 the fee is. Would you pay for it if it was $100? What about $10,000? I've to pay the $10,000. I havn't even got it, so it'll be in installments, over a long time. This is cause the amount isn't important to me, learning is. It shows that i'm serious about learning the training. Someone who really wants to learn something will not fail in any requirements to learn that.

Pachamama wrote:
many rich folk who took a 'fancy' to spiritual affairs could acquire alsorts of training if they had the right amount of £££££$$$$$$$ to do so. Lots of people over the centuries have wanted to 'look deeper' and discover more, but their standing in life has prevented them from doing so.....so the whole money being paid equating to genuine interest, and 'deserved entitlement' is a load of b*llocks to me..... and quite frankly in my view counter productive at the deepest level!

standing in life in todays society has got little to do with it. if folks can afford to talk on the interent, smoke, drink, go to cinema, whatevever, they can re-direct that cash to a payment plan long term. folks just seem to have other so called 'priorities'. it can take years to pay £10,000 (bout £6000), but so what? Folks spend 1000's every year smoking or drinking. of course, that's acceptable since it's legal, good god, hehe. Wasn't directing that at you, but reminds me of my latest comments in the attuning kid thread.

Pachamama wrote:
twasn't so long ago that only that only rich males were entitled to an education!!!...to me it's the exact same warped principle at work!

See above. anyhow, once one does level 1, they can go an treat others. level 2 they can do the same. next stage learn level 1 initiations, next stage level 2, etc. all the way along earning their way in Reiki. it's not complicated.

Pachamama wrote:
and I'm still not undertsanding your idea of 'spiritual permission' if each and every one of us are spiritual beings....then whos 'permission' but our own, need we seek to pursue a specific path?

then ask yourself what is the purpose of lineage. is it just a historical record?

read this first paragrap in particular from james http://www.aetw.org/reiki_reiju.htm

I totally understand what you are saying about cost and people finding a way to pay if they really want to learn..but I think you are missing the point I am trying to make reagarding the cost...and that is a high fee does not equate to only those genuinely being interested in learning, learning. To rich folk 10 grand is pocket money and they can splash that out on what ever takes their fancy at any given moment. I think high fees are counter productive it does not help sort the wheat from he shaft, but helps keep the nutritious soil from which the wheat sprouts, well and truly seperate! in other words those people to whom learning would benefit most, ie the poor!

tools for spiritual growth and learning should be made accessible to everyone, it should not be a condition of how much one is willing to financially fork out for said learning. But thats just my view.

As regards lineage and permission...I don't have time right now to read that link, I'll check it out later...but i have been giving lineage a great deal of thought lately, particulary since I have recently acquired a new Reiki lineage. I have my own thoughts on this....those are for another time though......when I can properly assemble my thoughts and experience into some kind of words that might make sense to others.

Pachamama wrote:I totally understand what you are saying about cost and people finding a way to pay if they really want to learn..but I think you are missing the point I am trying to make reagarding the cost...and that is a high fee does not equate to only those genuinely being interested in learning, learning. To rich folk 10 grand is pocket money and they can splash that out on what ever takes their fancy at any given moment. I think high fees are counter productive it does not help sort the wheat from he shaft, but helps keep the nutritious soil from which the wheat sprouts, well and truly seperate! in other words those people to whom learning would benefit most, ie the poor!

of course paying a high fee doesn't equate to being genuinely interested in learning. but what if a person couldn't afford it, yet still went ahead and done it. What does that imply toward the person's attitude to what they are to learn?

My business has collapsed. I'm now on government benefits once more. I'm paying the 10,000 still. there's no problem, (shrug). Being 'poor' has no bearing on it. A person should stop smoking maybe, stop takaeawys, stop drinking, stop eating sweets, stop going ot restaurants/cinema, etc, and use thar cash to suppliment their new Reiki business easy. And use that Reiki business to fund further training. It might take a few years, but big deal. Price is immaterial, dedication isn't.

Something that isn't recoqnised by many, is that there is another huge benefit for the student in paying a huge fee. If a person is paying a fee in installments, what better way to do that than by paying their way with what they are learning, and, acting out? It is solidifying the practice with the student. And giving a great incentive to make a success of their business.

Really though, what the whole point of it is, and i'm making my own judgement on this, is that Master level was never meant to be for everyone, and anyone. Usui didn't teach many it, in jikiden Dai Shihan is by invitation only. Folks like the Reiki Alliance don't teach more than a few Masters each. In Usui shiki Ryoh at least, I know it was never just about money. I've been told personally, that even if a person had the 10k, that is never a guarantee one would recieve master training. And it is only Master training we're talking about.

Pachamama wrote:
tools for spiritual growth and learning should be made accessible to everyone, it should not be a condition of how much one is willing to financially fork out for said learning. But thats just my view.

They always were. Reiki 1 & 2 was made easily accesible to almost everyone in Usui Shiki Ryoho. We're only talking about Master level.

In jikiden, , it reaches up to Dai Shihan, some 5 levels. It'd be inteeresting to know of the pricing structure for the other levels. Maybe Colin can give an input.

warmest wishes
Wayne

firstly let me say, sorry to hear your business has collapsed...but that is no reflection on you or your dedication, just a sign of the present economic times. Not sure how safe my job is at the mo, but like everyone around the globe, no-ones job is completely safe anymore. And secondly, I'm a little confused, you are paying £10,000 for Master training?.....but why are you doing that if you already are at that level and are able to offer that training and /initiation/attunement to others?

do I need to do a Bono number...' I still haven't found what I'm looking forrrrr'

within Jikiden there is a definate structure to the training...and if i'm honest aswell as sweet synchronicities, the training structure was one of the things that really appealed to me. I'm aware of some prices....but silly protocol prevents me from sharing some info. And prices are set in 'stone' as regards Jikiden, I'm aware that a lovely teacher offered the training to someone at a reduced price, and got a 'darn good telling off' from a certain teacher.

Jikiden is really interesting and I can't wait to try out some of the things I have learned.....whether or not I shall pursue Jikiden training further, I don't know, I'm just gonna see what transpires...

It was quite funny during the seminar, I mentioned about Reiki shares and the fact that there aren't any Jikiden practitioners in my area, and Tadao said well i'd have to become a teacher then....half jokingly half serious, I didn't take his comment on board, just smiled.

and getting back to pricing wayne, I do understand what you are saying, but I don't agree with it...it's good to agree to disagree

Pachamama wrote:firstly let me say, sorry to hear your business has collapsed...

that's ok. i've still got a few things i can do yet, slightly diversifying also. It just never took off the way it looked like it was going to.

Pachamama wrote:
And secondly, I'm a little confused, you are paying £10,000 for Master training?.....but why are you doing that if you already are at that level and are able to offer that training and /initiation/attunement to others?

It's really important for me i try to form my own critical opinion of everything in reality. I'm a bit of a paradox (ask Luvsouljah/ben). The more people spoke negative about Takata, the more i wanted to make my own mind up. So, whilst searching for THe style of Reiki (whatever that is) i came full circle back to Usui Shiki Ryoho. I feel a deep sense of belonging, loyalty, affection, even love, for both the style and Takata. The one person who is teaching me i never even asked him to. I guess he offered cause he saw similar in me in what he went through. Even though he regularly gets requests by folks to teach, he generally refuses (teaching Takatas ways), so for me, that in itself was a speical honour too good to miss.

Paradoxically, even though i'm at the gate of what Usui Shiki Ryoho was taught like, what has formed within me now is a deep appreciation of the alternative expression of Usui Shiki Ryoho. That formless catch-all path. for me, i look at the way reality is, in that there is no one reality here. So naturally there is no one way of experiencing God, so, no one way of experiencing Reiki. Hence the different styles, and the need for them. What is interesting is that Usui Shiki Ryoho itself, one style, encapsulates all of this. I've a deep respect for that. and now see that way as also essential.

with that in mind, it could be said that there should no longer be a need for me to learn takata's ways. And this is true. There is no 'need'. No burning desire. It was only when i accepted i would never learn her ways that in fact, i was offered what i did.

I tried for so long, and so hard to learn her ways. And i feel compelled to set the record straight in many things in Usui Shiki Ryoho, and with Takata> I dont' appreciate anyone, particularly people supposedely on an elightening path, jumping on bandwagons talking about a woman whom sold her house as the catalyst to me 7my family having the most fullfilling experience - living life in eyesight of God's smile.

Pachamama wrote:
do I need to do a Bono number...' I still haven't found what I'm looking forrrrr'

If you look at me, for whatever reason, rightly, wrongly, i want to share certain things, in as big a way as possible. analysing myself, this did start with a need internally. It's a bit more than that now. True to form, i have a gameplan. One in which i've spoke to my teacher about btw, .

Pachamama wrote:
It was quite funny during the seminar, I mentioned about Reiki shares and the fact that there aren't any Jikiden practitioners in my area, and Tadao said well i'd have to become a teacher then....half jokingly half serious, I didn't take his comment on board, just smiled.

Perhaps he sees something in you, .

Pachamama wrote:
and getting back to pricing wayne, I do understand what you are saying, but I don't agree with it...it's good to agree to disagree

wouldn't be the first time, hehe. Thanks for the chat, .

warmest wishes
Wayne

Life would be so boring if we all agreed all the time! and thanks for you heartfelt responses to my questions.....I feel I have more to ask you, as obviously you are reaching some kind of apex within your own understanding.... but not out here on the forum pages.....another time in private......

I'm not sure about people calling Takata...i haven't seen much of that going on, but then i have been out of the 'Reiki loop' for a while......just getting on with things in my own way. I've been totally unaware of what has been going on within the wider reiki community. It's so interesting the self searching and self discovery that this Reiki path brings.....I have a whole load of stuff going on myself lately.......I've been running through all the pivitol spiritual moments on my healing journey ( god that sounds so cheesy) over the last 15 years, and it's been incredibly enlightening and liberating......A revelation!

Hi Wayne! You asked for some input?

Well, as Sharon has said we can't go into detail about actual prices for all levels, in jikiden Reiki, although they can easily be found if you search around

However, in Usui's and Hayashi's (and even Takata's ) time the only reason to take a higher level of training than Okuden (level 2) was to become a teacher, I.e. Learn how to attune/initiate others, and that is it! All students needed to know to practice Reiki was in the first two levels. The higher level(s) were simply teacher levels. Since initiating and teaching others is a huge responsibility if it is to be done responsibly, prices were high to attract only those who really wanted to teach. There was no clamour for so-called Mastership or enhanced spirituality or greater ability to channel more Reiki because enhanced spirituality and effectiveness as a Reiki healer comes from practicing what we learn in the first two levels not the teacher level.
Post Takata, there seems to have been this need to add techniques to teach students at level 3 and pad out the courses, with extras, presumably to try and justify the initially high costs, together with promises of more powerful Reiki, and, of course the ego boosting title of Reiki Master, which was not known in Japan prior to the re-introduction of Reiki from the West.

Now it has become so easy and cheap to become a Reiki Master that some people just do that course to complete the set and to be called Reiki Master! Many do not even teach and those that do are often unaware that much of what they teach was not originally taught as part of Usui Reiki, and so more stuff gets mixed in with Reiki and often this causes the practice of Reiki to become less credible to medical professionals and the public in general.

I have no wish to offend people who call themselves Reiki Masters as I know many people who either deserve the title or are seriously working towards deserving that title but there are many Reiki Masters out there who appear to be unsure of what they should be doing, as can be seen by some of the questions asked on many forums like this one. Yes, answers to questions can be very helpful in order to improve our Reiki practice and understanding but often questions asked by reiki masters are really basic one's that should have been covered in Reiki levels 1 or 2, answered by their own teacher.

One of the reasons for such uncertainty and misunderstanding (and misinformation) is due to the clamouring for Reiki Mastership and the kudos it is thought to bring, instead of aspiring to become a Reiki Teacher or simply, fully committing to practising what was taught at levels 1 and 2, which is really all non-teaching Reiki practitioners need.

yes i did ask for your input. and true to form it was a great post! many thanks!

yeah nicely put Colin...

we have a little quarterly handbook thats comes out in my county, with aslorts of'alternative and complementary' therapies, therapists and courses on offer. I picked a new one up yesterday, and one teacher in particular, 'sell's' the master level like it is more powerful and you will gain mastery over yourself....blahblah...I went to one of this lady's Reiki shares once, cos it was the only one in my area...I didn't like her...still don't! ahaha

and lately I've been looking around various sites and organisations to see how they 'promote' the master level training....and my goodness, so many variations!!!!

I've always disliked the connotations of the word 'Master' within Reiki...I think it is very msileading, it would be much better to do away with that term and replace it with teacher. When people say ooh, a Reiki 'MASTER' immediately they have this elevated opinion of what that means.....I always say, the word Master within reiki simply donates another level of attainment which allows the person to teach, it does not mean they are a MASTER of Reiki ( this is what my First Reiki teacher said also)....


and Wayne I'm still thinking about how i want to word what lineage means to me....got to get ready for work now but I'll have some time next week to try and express my thoughts....