hi friends


we have issues that masters use not only CKR, but SHK and HSZSN,however latently, in level one iniitations... with a 'programming' that SHK and HSZSN will not be availabe to student on conscious level, unless he becomes 'entitled' to it via level 2 initiations...


then we have views that there must be some 'gap' between level one and level two for some time, so that the student 'better' grasps the feel of the reiki(energy) on shifting to level 2....

i have to ask, technically, that what 'better' thing level 2 brings to the student than level one.... if you say emotional healing and distant-healing, i have to ask how does become one master 'selective' in 'initiating' versus 'initiating with symbols' (i.e., level one and level two)


is there anything like 'initiating, but not initiating with symbols' ? as we commonly beleive in level one ?


well, if all said above is a 'technical garbage' then at least, i have one question intact. What is the 'real' rationale of splitting initiations between level one and level two ( i'm not asking about 'effects', i'm talking about 'rationale' )


its not that i m doing away with importance of symbols in level 2, rather i m saying that how can we 'know' that symbols were not there in level one ????? and so, again to the question, how a master can say he 'controls' not passing on symbols when he intends to initiate somebody with level one, with clear intention that he is 'not' initiating him to level 2..


post script : when i google mastership within reiki, i also come across terms like level 3a and 3b... what is meant by that ?? initiating somebody with master symbol but not conferring him initiating ability in so-called level 3a ? if we initiate somebdoy with master symbol but dont give him power to initiate people onwards, what we are initiating him with when initiating with master symbol ??


secondly, there is a view that DKM contains aspects of all the three levels combined... is that true ? and if true, then why dont masters use just DKM while initiating people in level one, and level two, since it already has aspects of CKR, SHK and HSZSN combined !

m i too big a fool here ??


take care

salman

Lambs-Wool wrote:hi friends


we have issues that masters use not only CKR, but SHK and HSZSN,however latently, in level one iniitations... with a 'programming' that SHK and HSZSN will not be availabe to student on conscious level, unless he becomes 'entitled' to it via level 2 initiations...

There's a question, as to what's the purpose of initiating a level 1 student into symbols they're supposedely not using.

Lambs-Wool wrote:
then we have views that there must be some 'gap' between level one and level two for some time, so that the student 'better' grasps the feel of the reiki(energy) on shifting to level 2....

i have to ask, technically, that what 'better' thing level 2 brings to the student than level one.... if you say emotional healing and distant-healing, i have to ask how does become one master 'selective' in 'initiating' versus 'initiating with symbols' (i.e., level one and level two)

There's the training, the knowledge of these symbols and their uses. Then there's the actual initiation, the spiritual empowerment to use the symbols. The spiritual empowerment to use the symbols is meant to be at a later time than the initial ability to experience Reiki. This is cause a person can build up their relationship with Reiki gradually.

and this is important cause Reiki was meant to be a great responsibility. Highly valued.

Lambs-Wool wrote:
is there anything like 'initiating, but not initiating with symbols' ? as we commonly beleive in level one ?

You're asking is there a level 2 Reiju, hehe. Prob someone who does something like that can answer. althouh i got one on dvd i'll show you within next two days.

Lambs-Wool wrote:
its not that i m doing away with importance of symbols in level 2, rather i m saying that how can we 'know' that symbols were not there in level one ????? and so, again to the question, how a master can say he 'controls' not passing on symbols when he intends to initiate somebody with level one, with clear intention that he is 'not' initiating him to level 2..

The master can't control it sometimes. It depends on how the symbols are used in level 1 initiation. The teacher may think they' only intiating in level 1, but depending on what way they use the symbols, quite often, they're also initiating right up to master level. This is why level 1 students can sometimes think that they can absent healing in Reiki, or initiaite themselves or others.

The reason why it's important that there's stages in Reiki is cause it's a very important gift, and with it comes 'maturity' (for lack of better word) into the whole experience.

Warmest wishes
Wayne

Hello Lambs-Wool

Lambs-Wool wrote:hi friends


we have issues that masters use not only CKR, but SHK and HSZSN,however latently, in level one iniitations... with a 'programming' that SHK and HSZSN will not be availabe to student on conscious level, unless he becomes 'entitled' to it via level 2 initiations...

Perhaps it depends on the nature of the initiation ritual a particular person uses.

Not all initiation rituals use all the symbols at all levels, this we are taught was how it was before Takata's passing. And I think that in the past there was more secrecy about Reiki, people did not discuss it in public, so even if a student was initiated with the three symbols, they would not know that they had, and would not know about how and why and when to use them. "Entitlement" would come with instruction in their nature and methods of application

Lambs-Wool wrote:
What is the 'real' rationale of splitting initiations between level one and level two ( i'm not asking about 'effects', i'm talking about 'rationale' )

IMO,to give the student the necessary space to develop firm foundations in the tactile application of energy-centred bodywork.

Lambs-Wool wrote:
post script : when i google mastership within reiki, i also come across terms like level 3a and 3b... what is meant by that ?? initiating somebody with master symbol but not conferring him initiating ability in so-called level 3a ? if we initiate somebdoy with master symbol but dont give him power to initiate people onwards, what we are initiating him with when initiating with master symbol ??

After Takata's passing some masters decided to split the master level in two parts.
I heard that the people doing this believed that the master level initiation gave you more "power". In part one the student would receive the master initiation and the expected boost in power. So really this was considered like an advanced or powered-up level 2. The student was not taught the initiation rituals, and was not taught how to draw the master symbol, or taught its mantra. This was only taught in the part two master training. It was not that the student was not given the power to initiate, it was only that the student was not instructed in the method of initiating which was kept for part two. I suppose the need for part two is obsolete now with all the information on different ways of initiating you can find on the internet

Lambs-Wool wrote:
secondly, there is a view that DKM contains aspects of all the three levels combined... is that true ? and if true, then why dont masters use just DKM while initiating people in level one, and level two, since it already has aspects of CKR, SHK and HSZSN combined !

I know there have been people claim the Master Symbol contains the aspects or qualities of all three other symbols combined, but this is IMO just another invention plucked out of thin air.

It is taught that before people began personalising the rituals of initiation, the master symbol and its mantra was only to be used for initiating masters


EZRI

there are people here in india who teach all three levels in a span of two-three days. thereafter, most of the students do not practise reiki or if they want to, they look around for some reiki master who can explain things to them. since their teacher does not explain or he has no time and goes on with his next batch of students.

college education here comprises a three year degree course. how much would you grasp if you learned everything within a three weeks period and took all the three examinations ?? you may pass and even get your graduation degree but how much would your knowledge be??

the same with reiki, as you mature every year so also you move up after every reiki level. there is no need to rush. enjoy the learning experience and the healing/suttle changes happening within.
renu

Good advice Renu. It's not just in India that all level sare done quickly thoughm it's common in the west. It really doesn't do anyone favours though!

Dear All thanks for the comments

Wayne and Ezri wrote:

Salman wrote:

we have issues that masters use not only CKR, but SHK and HSZSN,however latently, in level one iniitations... with a 'programming' that SHK and HSZSN will not be availabe to student on conscious level, unless he becomes 'entitled' to it via level 2 initiations...

Wayne : There's a question, as to what's the purpose of initiating a level 1 student into symbols they're supposedely not using.

Ezri : Perhaps it depends on the nature of the initiation ritual a particular person uses.

Not all initiation rituals use all the symbols at all levels, this we are taught was how it was before Takata's passing. And I think that in the past there was more secrecy about Reiki, people did not discuss it in public, so even if a student was initiated with the three symbols, they would not know that they had, and would not know about how and why and when to use them. "Entitlement" would come with instruction in their nature and methods of application

"The practice 'handed down' to us after Takata Sensei was perhaps to not to use all symbols for all levels..." but that later changed and some of the masters started adding up their personal flavours to the initiation, for sake of 'securing' a better initiation, plus with a taste for experimentation, i dunno, but a big question rises for me here...reiki in those days was considered far more 'sacred' (and 'secret' too ) than we have these days.. how some of the masters had actually 'dared' started using all the three symbols right from level one?

if i m initiated into a system that is primarily initiation-based, from how and where i get a 'mandate' of start doing things that don't tie up (or atleast precedented) by the lineage holders up my ladder...

this is a big question, for me, at least, that if i m going to add up something to an initiation-based system, i might be doing a great disservice to all that follow me down the ladder..


for me its more of a question of 'how dare you' instead of 'how/why do you' ?


on a different note, could be a possibility that some masters may assume that since they dont actually know what 'exactly' was passed down by Takata Sensei, or that what possibly was shared with her by Hayashi Sensei, they feel it their 'right' to add whatever they feel benefecial to their practices, taking a self-assumed 'benefit of doubt' ??

Wayne and Ezri wrote:

Salman wrote:
What is the 'real' rationale of splitting initiations between level one and level two ( i'm not asking about 'effects', i'm talking about 'rationale' )

Wayne : There's the training, the knowledge of these symbols and their uses. Then there's the actual initiation, the spiritual empowerment to use the symbols. The spiritual empowerment to use the symbols is meant to be at a later time than the initial ability to experience Reiki. This is cause a person can build up their relationship with Reiki gradually.

and this is important cause Reiki was meant to be a great responsibility. Highly valued.

Ezri : IMO,to give the student the necessary space to develop firm foundations in the tactile application of energy-centred bodywork.

if this was the real 'wisdom' behind split of level one and two (i feel agreed too ) then do we have to ask ourselves then why we dont adopt the system of reiju and extensive sessions of giving treatments to potential students, before we would initiate them to level one....

mostly its upto the masters that how they see they would shape up the impression of reiki community by attuning 'batches' of 'batches' of students.... reiki is highly valued, highly sacred (even when it is nowadays not so secret)... and this is something a master knows much better than a potential student.... do we have a 'code of ethics' specifically written and accepted globally so that masters would be aware that they attune the right candidate only after they had some experience with them through reiju and/or personally knowing and/or giving treatment sessions...


the point i want to make is that instead of producing hundreds of 'useless' students, it is perhaps better to produce 'just a couple of good students... this decision is based on the conscience of the master in the first instance, but do we have any detailed literature available for masters to come up to such concsience ??

Wayne wrote:

Salman wrote:
its not that i m doing away with importance of symbols in level 2, rather i m saying that how can we 'know' that symbols were not there in level one ????? and so, again to the question, how a master can say he 'controls' not passing on symbols when he intends to initiate somebody with level one, with clear intention that he is 'not' initiating him to level 2..

The master can't control it sometimes. It depends on how the symbols are used in level 1 initiation. The teacher may think they' only intiating in level 1, but depending on what way they use the symbols, quite often, they're also initiating right up to master level. This is why level 1 students can sometimes think that they can absent healing in Reiki, or initiaite themselves or others.

ah, Wayne dont you see this to be too pathetic for a master that he does not 'know' what he was exactly doing in an initiation... no disrespect intended, but i m just trying to see the whole episode with a neutral mind... a master has a great responsiblity, imo, he is 'tampering' with the spirituality of a student, and if he is not adquately aware of what he is doing, that may have unpleasant results for the student...


'throwing all the symbols in all the chakras of the student' and selectively programming some or one of them to be active, and others to be dormant till the next level' might not be an ideal practice always... i mean to say... what if a master had some sessions with students giving them reiju, giving them an appetite for the reiki feeling, and then gradually initiating them to level one... and so on...

any thought on this Wayne ??

Ezri wrote:

Salman wrote:
post script : when i google mastership within reiki, i also come across terms like level 3a and 3b... what is meant by that ?? initiating somebody with master symbol but not conferring him initiating ability in so-called level 3a ? if we initiate somebdoy with master symbol but dont give him power to initiate people onwards, what we are initiating him with when initiating with master symbol ??

After Takata's passing some masters decided to split the master level in two parts.
I heard that the people doing this believed that the master level initiation gave you more "power". In part one the student would receive the master initiation and the expected boost in power. So really this was considered like an advanced or powered-up level 2. The student was not taught the initiation rituals, and was not taught how to draw the master symbol, or taught its mantra. This was only taught in the part two master training. It was not that the student was not given the power to initiate, it was only that the student was not instructed in the method of initiating which was kept for part two. I suppose the need for part two is obsolete now with all the information on different ways of initiating you can find on the internet

agreed that part b seems to be sorta 'obsolete' now, given today's internet age, but even before that, there seems to be more of an 'ego-trip' on the part of masters to split up level 3 between 'a' and 'b' than the wisdom you just quoted... (sorry, if that is offensive to say) but honestly seeing, if i m initiating someone to such a high level as mastership, then dont i need to pre confirm myself that is that buddy 'ready' for that ?

not an arguement-biting dear Ezri , just curious so that i have a logic for what i do next !

Ezri wrote:

Salman wrote:

secondly, there is a view that DKM contains aspects of all the three levels combined... is that true ? and if true, then why dont masters use just DKM while initiating people in level one, and level two, since it already has aspects of CKR, SHK and HSZSN combined !

I know there have been people claim the Master Symbol contains the aspects or qualities of all three other symbols combined, but this is IMO just another invention plucked out of thin air.

It is taught that before people began personalising the rituals of initiation, the master symbol and its mantra was only to be used for initiating masters

and if i'wd be among those who wish to further do such a thin-capitalization, i would rather like to introduce HSZSN even before CKR and SHK, since once we start pouring in our own logics to a system like reiki, then there is virtually no end


personally, i feel DKM is 'specific' in its use for initiations... and even if it has subsidiary effects like 'power boost up' we rather have to stick to its primary purpose, just to save us from meaningless confusions....

i would be interested to hear the logics of people who have an oppoiste view for DKM

Renu wrote: there are people here in india who teach all three levels in a span of two-three days. thereafter, most of the students do not practise reiki or if they want to, they look around for some reiki master who can explain things to them. since their teacher does not explain or he has no time and goes on with his next batch of students.

thats the real pity Renu jee... in Pakistan too, as is elsewhere, we have teachers who feel that 'mentoring' and 'backup' services are not included in the package...


and one interesting thing i wish to share onboard its common with many masters that when a student comes up with views to discuss, masters start feeling that the student is possibly trying to 'test' his knowledge... while some students really do that, it is to the detriment of the rest that they find the doors of their masters 'closed' when they try to reconcile what they have researched through sources like internet or personal opinions...


Dont we need, at this moment of information age, to have a code of conduct for masters that is sorta manifesto too for everbody who wants coming up with this supreme responsibility ??


take care



salman

Lambs-Wool wrote:
reiki in those days was considered far more 'sacred' (and 'secret' too ) than we have these days.. how some of the masters had actually 'dared' started using all the three symbols right from level one?

if i m initiated into a system that is primarily initiation-based, from how and where i get a 'mandate' of start doing things that don't tie up (or atleast precedented) by the lineage holders up my ladder...

This is kinda an oxymoron what i'm gonna say. Being a Master kinda entitles you to teach and initiate as you wish, but, imo, this is why it's very important who was chose to be a master. If the wrong people were chose, it could be to the detriment of the whole path.

I've more clarification of my own views later in this post, but part of it's obvious i feel that the inclusion of things not Reiki has lead to the exclusion of things Reiki. So much so that when folks try to generate talk about Reiki specific things, if it doesn't fit into folks current interests, the person starting the talk can be looked down upon. This can be obvious, but sometimes more subtle, and it's so common folks don't even recoqnise it.

Lambs-Wool wrote:
this is a big question, for me, at least, that if i m going to add up something to an initiation-based system, i might be doing a great disservice to all that follow me down the ladder..

Practitioners are at the stage now where so much has been lost, there's a crossroads. To decide whether to uncover what was lost, and teach that, or to continue making up stuff that may be useful and labelling it as Usui Reiki.

Lambs-Wool wrote:
on a different note, could be a possibility that some masters may assume that since they dont actually know what 'exactly' was passed down by Takata Sensei, or that what possibly was shared with her by Hayashi Sensei, they feel it their 'right' to add whatever they feel benefecial to their practices, taking a self-assumed 'benefit of doubt' ??

Possibly, it's a valid point. A precendant for excluding Reiki's teachings isn't in itself a proper reason to continue to exclude.

A teacher has the power to change things as they wish. This is why it was important to choose who was taught teacher level, imo.

Lambs-Wool wrote:
if this was the real 'wisdom' behind split of level one and two (i feel agreed too ) then do we have to ask ourselves then why we dont adopt the system of reiju and extensive sessions of giving treatments to potential students, before we would initiate them to level one....

Reiju is more in line with a blessing, whereas the attunement is more about sharing a gift. What you're suggesting is a sound thing!

Lambs-Wool wrote:
the point i want to make is that instead of producing hundreds of 'useless' students, it is perhaps better to produce 'just a couple of good students... this decision is based on the conscience of the master in the first instance, but do we have any detailed literature available for masters to come up to such concsience ??

Some teachers were told to only initiate to Master level a couple. I've bene told personally by some Alliance folks that's their intentions also.

Lambs-Wool wrote:
ah, Wayne dont you see this to be too pathetic for a master that he does not 'know' what he was exactly doing in an initiation... no disrespect intended, but i m just trying to see the whole episode with a neutral mind... a master has a great responsiblity, imo, he is 'tampering' with the spirituality of a student, and if he is not adquately aware of what he is doing, that may have unpleasant results for the student...

I used to see it that way. imo, a person is entitled to express their spirituality as they wish. This isn't anything to do with Usui sensei though, so 'Usui' & 'Reiki' are wrong to be labelled and wrote on the same certificate.

If a person tells everyone including a student they teach Usui Reiki, then i feel they got an obligation to try to find out what it was they should be teaching. It's not really important if they actually find out, but if they try their best, they keep integrity, and respect to our founder.

If they don't label it with Usui sensei, then they of course are right to name it as they wish, and express it as they wish.

Lambs-Wool wrote:
'throwing all the symbols in all the chakras of the student' and selectively programming some or one of them to be active, and others to be dormant till the next level' might not be an ideal practice always... i mean to say... what if a master had some sessions with students giving them reiju, giving them an appetite for the reiki feeling, and then gradually initiating them to level one... and so on...

any thought on this Wayne ??

It depends on what way the symbols are used in the intiation, which dictates what way the spiritual empowerment is. For instance, to draw & say DKM could in fact initiate into the use of DKM, at level 1!

Warmest wishes
Wayne

Lambs-Wool wrote:

agreed that part b seems to be sorta 'obsolete' now, given today's internet age, but even before that, there seems to be more of an 'ego-trip' on the part of masters to split up level 3 between 'a' and 'b' than the wisdom you just quoted... (sorry, if that is offensive to say) but honestly seeing, if i m initiating someone to such a high level as mastership, then dont i need to pre confirm myself that is that buddy 'ready' for that ?

not an arguement-biting dear Ezri , just curious so that i have a logic for what i do next !

I think probably at first it was genuinely that some people who believed the master level initiation would give them more power (something I do not feel myself) wanted to experience this without having to pay the huge sum being asked for full master initiation and training, so a compromise was reached, for a lesser fee you could experience the master initiation, but not receive the instruction necessary to pass on the initiations to others. But perhaps later, ego and money-love clouded some people's reasons for offering this service to their students.




EZRI

twas mentioned a couple of times that some people feel the level '3b' is obselete now as there is so much information about out there how to do initiations..

does this mean I can read a couple of websites and round up some guinea pigs and away I go??? ahahahah....( don't think so)
i remember my teacher using the power of her breath in a very significant way...... is this the same for all attunements? were all you teachers taught how to utilise your breath in very significant ways for the attunement process?

Not all were taught 'sweetening the breath', which is a Reiki thing. Although you may be talking about contracting Hui Yin, which isn't a part of Reiki, but is used in the initiations.

In theory, if a person has been initiated into DKM, what they then need to know is actual initiations. Like Ezri says, very easy to get hold of on the internet, but the training (responsibility ?) isn't there.

It's my understanding that the Japanese
did not have a consistant educational
framework. Their style of teaching took
longer. Education outside Japan was more
accelerated. I notice today that many
practitioners teach 1/2 level at the same
time, no 21 day cleanse in between. Teaching
Reiki is really becoming even more accelerated.

Shakti ~ Rising wrote:i remember my teacher using the power of her breath in a very significant way...... is this the same for all attunements? were all you teachers taught how to utilise your breath in very significant ways for the attunement process?

hi Sharon

if breath is considered in a way we would 'blow' symbols into the attunee's auric(or whatever ) field, then it is just a substitute of doing by a pointed finger, wave of hand, etc.

here, the point confirms what Wayne was already saying we have to (or atleast try to) become crystal clear what is and what not is Usui Reiki....


although the breathing work is almost incidental to the reiki treatments... and once we do reiki to others regularly, we sooner come to know the nexus between giving reiki and using breathing in that (although the exact mechanism still eludes itself from me) but does this mean that breathin is 'included' in Usui reiki ?

(A personal note : i came to grips of QT during my early reiki work, and when i later read the QT manual, i found that i was already using the techniques un-knowingly during my reiki treatments... having said that, i had to go a long way to make myself believe that what i was doing with breathing was a fantastic work, and quite so effective too, but it wasn't reiki )


your respected teacher must have blended the breathwork with initiation ritual in a very fantastic way, no doubts, but did her hold out that the breathing work was 'a part of' the initiation work ?



take care

salman

the sweetening the breath is used as well as the hand movements/placement in initiations. it is a part of the Reiki initiation. .

Shakti ~ Rising wrote:twas mentioned a couple of times that some people feel the level '3b' is obselete now as there is so much information about out there how to do initiations..

does this mean I can read a couple of websites and round up some guinea pigs and away I go??? ahahahah....( don't think so)

I agree with you Shakti-Rising, tho what you suggest is not unheard of. So many people now receive the master initiation with out any teaching on how to pass initiations or sometimes even how to enact a Reiki treatment. What exactly you receive in a "part one" master initiation is relevant, different people have probably personalised their own versions, but if someone experiences the full initiation ritual, then they are initiated with all the (latent) inherent capabilities of a Reiki master, whether or not they have been instructed in the "form" (how to express these capabilities).

Shakti ~ Rising wrote:
i remember my teacher using the power of her breath in a very significant way...... is this the same for all attunements? were all you teachers taught how to utilise your breath in very significant ways for the attunement process?

Yes, the particular empowering breath-work you refer to is or should be a vital part of the initiation rituals.



EZRI

That is what i was led to believe by my teacher Ezri....seems not all masters were taught this or infact use this.. once again i am confused by conflicting ideas....

In yoga and meditation and other what may deemed 'spiritual disciplines' I have been involved in, the breath has played a vital role, so infact the idea of very specific breathwork involved in the initiations makes perfect sense to me....